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Post by omnimegami on Dec 21, 2017 15:11:37 GMT -5
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? I did not know this!! i.imgur.com/LkJ6u9B.pngwtf. are drag queen options the best the developers could do? -___________-; OR is that their idea of a noble attempt at including a female protagonist option with their costume/model reskinning method (which is actually what even games like Fortnite does, calling even alternate models as "outfits", and even GTA3 referred character change as "costume change", even when playing as different characters/pedestrians) I mean geez at least include 2D portrait art changes based on the costume sets worn so the portrait matches their 3D appearance. though, now with these revelations, it is apparent that Nanashi was intended to be a somewhat androgynous character design that could pass for male or female depending on their costume. I'm not sure if this gender bender teasing is an intended insult/mockery towards female gamers and trans people, or their humble effort to somehow try to make the game appealing for female gamers too. megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Shin_Megami_Tensei_IV_Apocalypse_Items/ClothingSo I'm confused. I dunno whether to praise their effort, or be disturbed by how they apply female identity. they never did this before. their intent will remain unknown. though with other examples like Adramelech's SMTIV:A design being so transgender in makeup, accessories, and behavior megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Adramelechit makes one wonder if SMT team are self aware there is a demand and need for female protagonist, and SMT has a history of SMT if... and NINE including female protagonist option, but the devs are either internally conflicted by it, unsure whether to hold onto or let go of the male only protagonist tradition, or they have a deeper message they keep to themselves and perhaps want to add female protagonist option as a standard traditional feature for the series in the future, like Pokemon is doing since Crystal. meanwhile, Dx2 SMT Liberation is taking steps forward with that subject, and ensuring the story and game is designed around both male and female versions of the protagonist (which is how RPGs should be designed, so they are adaptable for both genders from the start. series like Elder Scrolls, and now Pokemon do it all the time). www.4gamer.net/games/393/G039361/20171128021/perhaps SMT could be starting to see it's more profitable and beneficial to the devs, publisher, SMT series, and consumers as a whole providing both options. well SMT V could determine if they will reach out to the female demographics as well, it would increase interest, fanbase and profits.
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cait
Sapphire Star
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Post by cait on Dec 21, 2017 21:56:42 GMT -5
I literally made this account just to comment on this.
You... DO realize that it's just a random costume option? It's not really much more. Don't overthink it. I don't know much about SMT 4A, but I know enough to say that this was clearly not the intent. At its core, it's just... crossdressing. Not too hard to grasp. This happens in other SMT games as well. For example, in Persona 5, Morgana's a guy but gets a few female DLC costumes.
Besides, not all RPGs need two options for a protagonist. Whether it be for the sake of the story or just because the devs want a defined character rather than a blank sheet of paper, it's not needed. Although it's certainly appreciated when it does happen, such as in P3P.
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Post by omnimegami on Dec 21, 2017 22:33:27 GMT -5
that's such nonsense from Atlus. I hate them even more.
and RPGs do need two gender options for protagonist!! heck, its a fundamental principle that existed since Dungeons & Dragons!!!!!!!
no rpg is a true RPG without character creation and the freedom to be either sex. it should always be up to the player!!!
they are literally pushing customers away only catering to one sex for protagonist. having no female protagonist to play as, at least as an alternative option, is sexist and disrespectful and just plain wrong.
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cait
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Post by cait on Dec 22, 2017 10:41:11 GMT -5
I don't even know how to respond to this.
I will admit that you're completely right about having two gender options for your main character being a good thing. Heck, it's one of the main things in games that have character customization! However, as a girl myself, I haven't found this lack of an option in certain games to be sexist in the slightest. I can identify with a male protagonist with no problem, although I do appreciate it when a female option is available.
However, there's no absolute law that says that character customization is an absolute must. In fact, for many years, it was not an option in RPGs, yet nobody minded. Even RPGs such as the Final Fantasy games have zero customization (outside of outfits) yet are still considered RPGs. Besides, sometimes, the devs want to tell the story of a character, not the player avatar. In these specific cases, it's like trying to alter Harry Potter just because you want him to look a certain way.
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Post by omnimegami on Dec 22, 2017 21:00:34 GMT -5
it doesn't have to be law. character creation is a fundamental principle that respects different preferences of identity, and at least makes the attempt to provide players with options to choose their own ideal identity they want to play as.
and pure RPGs are more like Dungeons & Dragons instead of movies or novels that have premade characters. the best stories are personal stories with customizable identity overall. the RPGs that prefer dictating premade character, lost their way and limit their game's possibilities and ways to it can be experienced from different identities and types of people.
if a developer prefers a premade character, then they are limiting their demographics and appeal, especially if there are no alternatives.
look at The Elder Scrolls Skyrim, that definitely has more universal customization and appealing to more demographics than just one type. and its one of the true RPGs that respect different preferences of protagonist and stuff, even way of life and openess overall.
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cait
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Post by cait on Dec 23, 2017 11:35:40 GMT -5
>Not a law >Is a fundamental principle
pick one
I don't want to repeat myself, so I'll just make this brief. I'm not counting DnD as an RPG in this argument about video game RPG because, simply put, tabletop RPGs are MEANT to have character creation as a core principle.
On the topic of limiting demographics to a crippling level, I don't see how that is the case. For example, a huge number of games (not just RPGs) in gaming's early days had no choice, yet this didn't shut doors on demographics. Mario's a male character, yet a wide demographic loves the games. Same with Sonic. Also, on that train of thought... wouldn't it be kind of stupid to have a video game mascot, but scrap it in favor of super special OC #24?
And to put it bluntly, character customization does not a good game make. Just take a look at Sonic Forces, or FE Fates. Both have character customization, but their other aspects are lacking and hurt the game as a whole.
However, I will admit that character creation can encourage new demographics. It's also a thing I appreciate! The problem is, not only do devs tend to have a certain demographic in mind, but it's wrong to say that it's the only thing that matters.
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Post by Arbiter on Dec 23, 2017 13:54:59 GMT -5
throw my opinion into the mix [apologies if it doesn't meet yours] RPG or JRPG's massive open worlds or not open worlds, if they're offering a character that can be either Male or Female i would probably choose female AS the creation options is better! [just my opinion] for e.g. Destiny even though their creation options are AWFUL! the female option is better, although i agree with Cait [hello btw] if the story revolves around a Male/Female "a predetermined" gender to make the story "work" doesn't bother me as long as it keeps me entertained for hours on end. [Apologies if this post makes no sense, currently pissed outta my skull XD] and by agree with Cait Character Customization doesn't make a game Epic, if its Male Based or Female
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Post by omnimegami on Dec 24, 2017 15:15:42 GMT -5
Wow you people are such apologists that are letting the inequality, sexism and disregard for the need for female protagonist continue to limit games to the male demographic. Just because you identify with males and accept male protagonists doesn't mean all other girls have to think the same.
Get real. Mario is NOTHING to most girls that prefer to play as a female charcter. the only time Mario games are relevant to girls like us is when characters like Princess Peach are playable (like 3DWorld). I mean seriously, that's like thinking just because the NFL or NBA are extremely popular, most women watch it. Nope. Wrong. Some of us women if we were to watch a sport, prefer to watch women play the sport. Just like how the majority of males prefer to watch males play a sport. A mascot cannot never be appealing to everyone compared to OC/created character possibilities. A lot of players prefer to play as their own ideal identity instead of some force fed character that just caters to mindless drones that just accept whatever. Not everyone wants to be Sonic or any premade character they don't like and don't identify with. so OC is not stupid at all, it's only stupid how games like Sonic Forces apply avatar, so it's not the fault of OC, it's how they designed the game as a whole and having a tug of war between 3 protagonists instead of learning from more open minded games that aren't afraid to put aside the franchise hero for the player avatar like Dragon Ball Xenoverse.
And remember that videogame RPGs copy what tablerop RPGs in almost every category, tabletop RPGs came BEFORE videogame RPGs. videogame RPGs copied/adopted the concept of attributes, dungeons, leveling up, experience points, RNG (equivalent to dice rolls), quests, parties, etc. etc. the problem are the RPGs that skip over the character creation aspects that make a true RPG something to more people and preferences of identity and identity people can relate to. no single gender can match everyone's preference they can relate to.
a story means nothing if the player doesn't like the character they are playing as. premade characters suck, they have premade identity that not everyone accepts. they have premade personality that not everyone likes, player created character is always superior. it's just a shame there's so many sheep out there that prefer to be indoctrinated and let the devs play god with their identity and to strict extremes. pathetic. if I wanted to see a story about a premade character, that's what movies and tv shows are for. they are limited to one path, and everything has to be predetermined. but videogames medium is more open to infinite possibilities, and like good open minded and considerate games have shared examples of, any story can be adaptable to either gender. it's up to the developers to design the game with both genders in mind instead of just pandering to one type.
character customization does help a game begin to become epic. for how can people love the game, story, world, gameplay, if they don't love theirself/character they play as!
it's something that should not be limited to mobile games or mmorpgs. any RPG can have the feature, and if they choose not to provide the options, then they are limiting their sales and fanbase. if they don't care then they are harming their own company and corrupting their own attitude towards females (or even in the case of games that cater to females but ignore males. being biased towards one gender when making a game, limits your consumerbase) . Even if they still make millions and get awards, and perfect review scores, they and their game will still mean nothing to those that reject the character they assign the players that play their game.
and there's already history of RPGs with great stories, great gameplay, and lte players choose their sex and even appearance in their games. It's win/win. So it can be done whether a developer has a low budget or a large budget. no excuse can forgive developers that disregard either gender when it comes to protagonist identity and options.
and if they don't provide to a particular gender the type of character the demographic prefers to play, then they wasted their game's greater potential and wider consumerbase. even a minority demographic still multiply their sales and fanbase by a significant amount, but of course those sexists don't see that because they value their bias and fanatical obsession to the majority demographic, instead of being fair, benevolent and equally respectful towards both genders.
this is something companies, including Game Freak with Pokemon, learned over the generations, and they benefitted from making their games for both genders and letting the player choose what the player prefers to be. Any developer worth anything worthy of respect would not turn their back on the female demographic, or either demographic for that matter.
even on the flipside, we see how niche Senran Kagura is. it's nothing to males that prefer male characters, that's a part of the reason why Naruto series is more popular among males and females, because its series and games with selection have a more diversified selection of characters of both genders and even different races, than what Senran Kagura provides. now take the opposite of Senran Kagura at the industry level and you could begin to see the oversaturation of exclusive male pandering that is harming games, companies and devs from receiving a wider consumerbase.
smart, intelligent, respectful, open minded companies value both male and female demographics, take the subject very seriously, know there's more money to be made creating their game for both genders, don't leave either one out of the fun, knows both genders as lead protagonist options enhance their game and story perspectives and appeal as a whole,
and DO NOT place one gender higher than the other.
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cait
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Post by cait on Dec 24, 2017 20:42:44 GMT -5
lolwut. I... am not being sexist at all. Nor are these developers. But to be honest, this debate is going nowhere and, knowing how stubborn you can be, will reach a conclusion when Hell freezes over.
So
uh
Wanna settle this in a 1v1 fight? I can play Yugioh or WIXOSS or something against you. Oh, or Skullgirls! The vanilla game's 3 dollars (due to sales) on Steam, and I'd be happy to teach you how to play!
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PurpleFortune
Emerald Star
Hi, I'm a lesbian and busty babes are my weakness.
Posts: 69
PSN ID: PurpleFortune
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Post by PurpleFortune on Dec 24, 2017 22:06:31 GMT -5
This started with a crossdresser.
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cait
Sapphire Star
Posts: 7
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Post by cait on Dec 24, 2017 22:07:35 GMT -5
How we got here, nobody knows for certain. Perhaps mountains come from molehills after all, to reference a certain saying.
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PurpleFortune
Emerald Star
Hi, I'm a lesbian and busty babes are my weakness.
Posts: 69
PSN ID: PurpleFortune
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Post by PurpleFortune on Dec 24, 2017 22:31:18 GMT -5
Listen, I think you're being kind of ridiculous about this, and a lil' bit insulting by calling these people sheep and/or sexist. You're getting your love of customization get ahead of rational thought. This is not about people being sexist because you can't be whatever you want in a game. Game's have specific characters because they want a central icon for their game, they want the protagonist to have a specific and recognizable design, and/or the specific character is chosen because they are a main focus of the story. Call them fake RPGs if you want, but not every RPG is out there to tell YOUR story, sometimes the story they want to tell is focused on a specific character, male, female, whatever.
If a game loses some sales because they wanted to do things a specific way and it didn't match someones preference, oh well. If anyone is close minded here, it's the consumer. Artistic integrity shouldn't be sacrificed for them. Your point about Senran Kagura also confuses me, because even you once mentioned that at one point the series DID add a male character, and that went over very smoothly.
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Post by omnimegami on Dec 30, 2017 16:42:25 GMT -5
I apologize if I offended anyone, but people with the attitude that sweeps the issue under the rug, play devil's advocate, or pretend its not even an issue, or it doesnt matter does they accept anything, are letting devs get away with things that not only push away and indirectly disrespect the female demographic, but ALSO harms their own product and company as well because they are limiting their demographics and consumerbase to just people that are ok with male protagonist, while they ignore and even reject those that prefer female protagonist and there's already examples of games, large and small, character driven, and silent protagonist driven, that showed any RPG can provide both options, especially a series that has silent protagonist, can be either gender and the story they wanna tell can be adaptable to both. it's really based on how they design and word things. SMT especially, doesn't have the social complexity of Persona games, so after SMT if... and SMT NINE, there's really no good excuse to leave female protagonist out of their SMT games, and they are limiting the game's potential being biased towards one gender and only making their game for specifically one gender and those that bow down and accept anything. and you say that I call people ok with how they do things as sheep or sexist, yet you call people like me closed minded, when the real closed minded ones are the developers that just stick with pandering to one gender (especially exclusively pandering to that gender like always for all their numbered series), and the ones that just think there's nothing wrong with it. like seriously, so you think the industry, especially the devs that have the talent to create great game and stories that would be worth of damn to more women if it actually had protagonist we can identify with. Like really assuming most women can identify with a male is like assuming most males can identify as a female. nope, it doesn't work that way. that's why OPEN MINDED developers take the time and consideration and effort to make their game and story for both genders. and its a shame such a series like SMT would be so much greater and appealing to female demographic with playable female protagonist option included. you know Pokemon would still make millions with only male protagonist, however Game Freak KNOWS that female demographic matters, from Crystal onward they knew that the female demographic should not be treated like a secondary thing, should not be left out of the player protagonist role as as option to play as. Game Freak has gone even as far as to include customizable appearance to some extent and even a wider range of ethnicities that can be represented through the customization. So they earned the extra fans, profits and respect. So this is really not bashing Atlus and SMT team and even Persona team as much as it is a reminder to gamers and whoever that the lack of playable female lead option in mainline series like SMT is harming their own company as well as limiting the selection of games people, especially women, would be interested in playing had there been an option to be a girl in the game. "Artistic integrity"? Atlus, Persona and SMT's team idea of artistic integrity, based on their persistence to lead female protagonist out of the equation for every mainline game that's not a spinoff (SMT if..., NINE, P3P) or sequel (like P2:EP, which is ancient now), Atlus's decision makers's idea of "artistic integrity" is basically art that is manipulated by sheer sexism mixed with misogyny. So you think they should maintain their obvious sexism, which is a part of their artistic integrity, should continue to poison their company and game with such disrespectful ideals of males being the heroes, while the females play the supportive sex objects. So Atlus developers, including SMT veteran and now Persona 5 director, said this offensive sexist statement gamerant.com/persona-5-female-lead-not-worth-it/and then says this regarding their ideals towards females. www.resetera.com/threads/persona-5-director-to-character-designer-all-females-should-be-on-the-cute-side.5456/page-15See how ridiculous your reasoning sounds and how ridiculous it is to side with those sexist pigs? Atlus people you defend, think females should be attractive, yet not in leading role, not even as an alternative option. AND they dont even care to take turns with what the next protagonist's gender is!!!! it's not too hard to include female protagonist, it's a matter of choice! and then choosing not to after 4 mainline games of Persona and 4 mainline games of SMT, not counting spinoffs, is just plain inconsiderate, sexist and heartless! they are sexist. there is more sexism in Japan that in even north america, and Atlus happens to be a victim of the evil side of Japanese culture that's plagued their mentality for generations. ha, they can stick with their corrupt integrity and devotion to their devoted sexism, everytime they do that, they not only disgrace the company in the eyes of people that prefer female protagonist, but also people in general that know there are smaller developers that are doing more for both genders without bias. Also about Senran Kagura, I was against them adding a male character, BECAUSE they don't even properly reform the series so that both male and females exist in the factions together, instead of "oh, their male master or whoever is added to the playable selection", like what? that is so awkward, that's like adding a female member to an NFL team. either change the sport first so that it has both genders playing the sport, or make a separate league for it. but anyways Senran Kagura is not a good comparison for this particular subject, because that series is so far in one side of the spectrum and the only part that can be related in a sense, is how Senran Kagura digged itself in a hole it cannot get out of, and cannot win most of the male (and even female) demographics as is whereas series like Atlus's RPGs are somewhere in the middle, yet they completely leave female protagonist out of their most canon, mainline and ambitious games, and that is not considerate to those that prefer female protagonist. and if they don't care then they continue to be their own poison and their games that lack female protagonist will not be pushed by people worldwide that feel like i do about it. 2018 is next door and enough is enough, those of us with integrity and respect of the female sex and gender equality are no longer going to purchase games that don't include our demographic in their leading role designs and options. both genders matter, and history proves that a lot of games that provide both options are better as a game and get extra attention, sales and respect, than lacking either one.
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cait
Sapphire Star
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Post by cait on Dec 30, 2017 19:44:31 GMT -5
See? We're getting absolutely nowhere.
So fight me like a (wo)man, Omni.
Pokémon Showdown.
Vulpix only.
Little Cup.
Let's go.
(All jokes aside, it would get the issue resolved with less angry typing and pointless arguing. Heck, maybe it would be best to take a break and just chat over a friendly game. I can tell you're worked up, and I understand that. I'm a bit worked up too. But let's just agree to step back a bit, maybe get to know each other, and even agree to disagree.)
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Post by tabris666 on Sept 4, 2023 14:48:40 GMT -5
Well i know this is old but i just subscribed because some stuff of your rambling made no sense at all. While is true that there are a minimal ammount of female gamers in reality they don't care about RPG or similar kind of games is the truth. Also you get mad at the costume yet you forget the character look like a girl,no matter how you look it,it ends up looking like a girl. If you don't like the game just say it but don't forget the canon of Shin Megami Tensei "most humans that can make contracts with demons are debauched perverts" this is canon to all the games (even persona games). Also going in far fetched reminds me of why some games don't change and is because girls don't buy games simple as that. And sex sell so why stop,or what you prefer all the games to be like american games >Protagonist is an old man or a gun >Female Protagonists are gorillas. Just remember the failure of DOA6 which is a game intended for the female demographic that complained about being sexist yet it failed so much that Team Ninja decided to stop selling games to american market.
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