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Post by Kagura Top Gal on Apr 14, 2016 16:19:49 GMT -5
Currently finishing up the last of the DLC missions I can play on the Vita, and I notice something quite interesting. In these they elaborate specifically on what separates the schools that technically belong to the same "side" of good and evil. It does a nice job pushing it into the foreground.
-Hanzõ academy is the sun. Its light shines on everyone no matter how vile, believing in redemption for all. Very idealistic, but there's a core of truth in believing that the label of evil is not enough to know if someone is actually a bad person.
-Gessen is the moon. It shines when and where the sun can not, but its glow is pale and sharp. While it does not deny the good inside evil, it does not sugarcoat the fact that there is such a thing as unambiguous evil. If truly necessary, the moon's light will pick up where the sun fails.
-The Crimson Squad is evil in the sense that it is not tied down to an establishment. They're renegades and independants, and it shows. Their path is what they believe in, and not what others tell them to believe. Perhaps they are the most adaptable of all.
-Hebijo is necessary evil. It exists to elevate the good, give them something to strive for. They do what is ultimately necessary for the world by giving good a reason to exist, keeping good on its toes by forcing it to grow stronger in a relatively controlled environment. If they were not around, good would not be strong enough to defeat the most chaotic evils that bend nature and aim to destroy mankind.
Please discuss or see if you have anything to add.
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Post by Leon Tekashi on Apr 14, 2016 19:05:55 GMT -5
Really, the only main difference is how they all go about it. In the end though, they all want the same thing. When there's light, there's a shadow. When there's a shadow, there's a source of light somewhere.
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Post by tzitzimine on Apr 14, 2016 22:54:40 GMT -5
We knew what Hebijo and Hanzo and stood for since Burst and Crimson got nicely developed on SK2, however with Gessen the whole thing is off.
First, despite supplemental materials claiming Gessen is a school just like Hebijo and Hanzo, we've never seen anyone else coming from Gessen and since the supplemental material explicitly define Gessen as a school for the rich and powerful, I'm hesitant to take Yumi's words at face value. Now if we take that as what Yumi's group "think" then is more reasonable.
Second, that still suffers from the same poor development that has plagued Yumi's group since the start. The cutscene explictly has the other girls struggling to grasp what Yumi's claiming and Yumi herself has never shown to actually ponder what Justice means, she just keeps repeating Kurokage's creed without analyzing it (in contrast Asuka had a whole game to ponder what "being a sword and shield" actually meant) thus making her arguments ring hollow. The sad thing is that if they would've used her GH stories to actually develop Yumi instead of going the waifu nonsense we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
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Post by Kagura Top Gal on Apr 15, 2016 4:08:47 GMT -5
We knew what Hebijo and Hanzo and stood for since Burst and Crimson got nicely developed on SK2, however with Gessen the whole thing is off. First, despite supplemental materials claiming Gessen is a school just like Hebijo and Hanzo, we've never seen anyone else coming from Gessen and since the supplemental material explicitly define Gessen as a school for the rich and powerful, I'm hesitant to take Yumi's words at face value. Now if we take that as what Yumi's group "think" then is more reasonable. Second, that still suffers from the same poor development that has plagued Yumi's group since the start. The cutscene explictly has the other girls struggling to grasp what Yumi's claiming and Yumi herself has never shown to actually ponder what Justice means, she just keeps repeating Kurokage's creed without analyzing it (in contrast Asuka had a whole game to ponder what "being a sword and shield" actually meant) thus making her arguments ring hollow. The sad thing is that if they would've used her GH stories to actually develop Yumi instead of going the waifu nonsense we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. That first point is kind of irrelevant. Hanzõ academy's nature doesn't say anything about what the shinobi students learn there. It's two completely separate worlds. If you meant that as a shinobi school it's elitist in that sense, then it's still a non-argument, as Hanzõ academy has the same general mentality about a clean record and usually being born in relatively good standing. Doesn't tell us anything about what their good entails. In fact, it directly contradicts the students' mentality. With Gessen in general the issue seems to be that a lot of things are implicit moreso than explicit. The DLC mission brought it to the foreground, and if you actually go back to previous things and pay attention, you can see them develop implicitly. Even SV had Yumi develop quite a bit, even though she appears to be the same on the surface. |
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Post by mixaj on Apr 15, 2016 8:16:37 GMT -5
yeah, good points here and I see the things pretty much the same way as Leon does. Them all wants to be the best one, to make their teammates happy and the ones them cares about proud, including the families and heritage them represents but after all, none of them wouldn´t be ready to sacrifice the harmony and balance them has created together. Also if them has a common enemy, them works together to beat it so I wouldn´t say that any of them is truly evil. Still each group has a meaning and all of them fullfills each other.
What comes to Yumi, well, I think she and the members of Gessen are a big reason why everything is messed. It´s like every member seeks Yumi for answers and keeps her as their leader but Yumi´s own way of thinking mostly leads just to nonsense and in the end, none of them don´t really care what she says anyway. Example others mostly say about Yumi that them don´t understand what she means but them thinks they might have a clue. Shiki and Minori also just have completely own goals and Murakumo does what others do. Yozakura would be the only good leader but she feels she can´t lead them so in short, them are a group of inviduals with own goals and doesn´t really act like a crew except if the pressure is up, them will try but often fails.
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Post by tzitzimine on Apr 15, 2016 10:40:14 GMT -5
That first point is kind of irrelevant. Hanzõ academy's nature doesn't say anything about what the shinobi students learn there. It's two completely separate worlds. If you meant that as a shinobi school it's elitist in that sense, then it's still a non-argument, as Hanzõ academy has the same general mentality about a clean record and usually being born in relatively good standing. Doesn't tell us anything about what their good entails. In fact, it directly contradicts the students' mentality. With Gessen in general the issue seems to be that a lot of things are implicit moreso than explicit. The DLC mission brought it to the foreground, and if you actually go back to previous things and pay attention, you can see them develop implicitly. Even SV had Yumi develop quite a bit, even though she appears to be the same on the surface. My point was that we do know Asuka's creed is different from the one taught on the school and is something that Hanzo himself endorses so there can be a change within the shinobi as whole. For Yumi's group we know they're following Kurokage's ideas, not Gessen's, Gessen as concept is so irrelevant that you could remove its status as school and there wouldn't be any difference in the plot. Now this is relevant because back on Burst the girls' ideas are being molded based on what the school teaches them and Hanzo is the one actually challenging Asuka to find her shinobi path by herself. For this Asuka has to confront what the school teaches her and what her values tell her what is right. Is this same contrast what develops Homura's group from Hebijo into the Crimson Squad. And by the same token, Miyabi's team don't really evolve Hebijo as concept, they simply replace the Crimson Squad in the dynamic stablished since Burst. For Yumi's group there's no such contrast, they're just blindly following Kurokage's creed not even once stopping to question it. They sort of start questioning it just because Hanzo literally beats them in the head with that during Versus (and even then, is not an actual factor on Gessen's own story) and this takes me to the second point, Yumi's issue is not that the development is being implict, the issue is that they just change ideas due external elements, never internalizing and understanding the reasons for that. What comes to Yumi, well, I think she and the members of Gessen are a big reason why everything is messed. It´s like every member seeks Yumi for answers and keeps her as their leader but Yumi´s own way of thinking mostly leads just to nonsense and in the end, none of them don´t really care what she says anyway. Example others mostly say about Yumi that them don´t understand what she means but them thinks they might have a clue. Shiki and Minori also just have completely own goals and Murakumo does what others do. Yozakura would be the only good leader but she feels she can´t lead them so in short, them are a group of inviduals with own goals and doesn´t really act like a crew except if the pressure is up, them will try but often fails. Exactly, Gessen girls just go through the motions, having a pretty passive role through the games lacking the motivation and the drive of the other groups, they only start moving because something else makes them (Hanzo in Versus, Kurokage in EV) |
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Post by mixaj on Apr 15, 2016 12:51:00 GMT -5
tzitzimine Yup, thats how I see Yumi and Gessen too. Gessen don´t really make moves and more or less, each member just likes to have fun. I like Yumi, but I have to admit that sometimes, I don´t know does she want to lead or does she just want to be one of the girls on group. It´s cute when she starts to speak nonsense, or thinks the world from her point of view, but as one of my friends said, she can´t be taken very seriously. Shinovi Versus and girls heart missions are good example of Yumi as a question turns into nonsense and in the end, well... to cuteness overload nonsense. I also think she is a powerful character who could be played a bit different way and who knows, maybe get some idea to Gessen´s way of behaving.
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Post by tzitzimine on Apr 15, 2016 13:02:03 GMT -5
tzitzimine Yup, thats how I see Yumi and Gessen too. Gessen don´t really make moves and more or less, each member just likes to have fun. I like Yumi, but I have to admit that sometimes, I don´t know does she want to lead or does she just want to be one of the girls on group. It´s cute when she starts to speak nonsense, or thinks the world from her point of view, but as one of my friends said, she can´t be taken very seriously. Shinovi Versus and girls heart missions are good example of Yumi as a question turns into nonsense and in the end, well... to cuteness overload nonsense. I also think she is a powerful character who could be played a bit different way and who knows, maybe get some idea to Gessen´s way of behaving. Indeed. In it's current state Yumi can only work well as comedic relief and foil for Asuka and Homura, because she's basically a living sound board from which the other characters can bounce off their ideas. The only time Yumi has shown ideas on her own, she ended adding puri to her talking, hardly a way to make her character believable as leader. With that in mind, everything that has happened regarding Gessen and Yumi in particular it feels like they're just dropping elements and protagonism in them regardless if they have earned them or not. Yumi labelling Asuka as a naive idealist or claiming she will take care of things beyond Asuka's control is hilariously short sighted given Yumi's own actions through the whole game and the way Yumi own teammates don't know what the hell she's talking about. And isn't like is very hard to develop her character, they just need to have her seriously ponder what justice truly means and interact seriously with the rest of Gessen instead of just Asuka and/or Homura. |
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Post by Kagura Top Gal on Apr 15, 2016 13:09:44 GMT -5
This wasn't intended to be an anti-Yumi circlejerk thread, but alright, I'm not sure what I expected in the first place anyway. Can't have a single discussion, conversation or observation that loosely involves Gessen that doesn't devolve into this stuff, it seems.
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Post by mixaj on Apr 16, 2016 6:37:54 GMT -5
This wasn't intended to be an anti-Yumi circlejerk thread, but alright, I'm not sure what I expected in the first place anyway. Can't have a single discussion, conversation or observation that loosely involves Gessen that doesn't devolve into this stuff, it seems.
Yumi is my third fave character and I like her and Gessen so I don´t feel like I am mocking her or Gessen, even if for some things I keep as negative. As most characters, she has good and bad sides and as I also like Shiki (my fave or 2nd depending the situation), I would even say Gessen is my fave. Currently the way Gessen and Yumi is just made, them lacks a bit on development and I would had love to see them to be, let´s say... a bit more clear and in line with their goals because it´s like them don´t have any. Maybe them doesn´t need to be a such a tight group, maybe them can only act when them are feeling challenged but as said here, the way Yumi is played and Gessen in general is just a bit messed. Then again Kagura Top Gal this could also be the issue of the game because on Shinovi Versus, depending your school choice, Yumi and Gessen appears as very different on each line and girls heart missions there make it even more messed. This should been fixed on Estival Versus but instead, it just kept the things as messed up.
I just find it as a bit of a shame because Yumi and Gessen has so much potential and the members of Gessen are all really fun to watch and follow but I kinda feel like them don´t have a bigger meaning than just to be an extra school added to the game. All Gessen inviduals are great on own way and each character is very different but also their structure is unique compared to other groups. Also as I´ve told before, I like about Yumi´s personality. . Example one of my fave moments is the three way battle between leaders and the speech before and after battle in Estival Versus.
Also still thanks for opening this thread and I am sorry if you and others feel like the thread has taken another kind of path you wanted. You also had good points on first post like what seperates the schools from each other. In the end, it´s all about keeping the balance and each school fullfils the another, as also explained on games.
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