|
|
Post by ateliertohka on Nov 1, 2016 1:09:03 GMT -5
Well, this has been on my mind lately, and now I just feel like I should just come out and voice my biggest criticism of modern beat-em-ups: The inflated character rosters. Koei's Dynasty Warriors franchise has, like it or not, become the face for the modern beat-em-up genre, and not all of its aspects are good. In particular, the unnecessarily large character rosters of these kind of games are the biggest problem. This leads to one of the biggest frustrations with these games. That frustration being a lack of balance with the characters. Character imbalance can mean from a gameplay standpoint, which some characters being significantly stronger than others in-game. Character imbalance can mean a lack of proper treatment for some characters in the plot and more favorable treatment for others. Either way, this sort of thing is a problem, creatively speaking.
In the Final Fight and Golden Axe games from days of old, we only had three playable characters, and we were fine with that. They were all pretty well-rounded and balanced, nobody was placed above anybody else, and it wasn't half bad. Heck, even larger-scale four-player beat-em-ups like Konami's X-Men and Capcom's Dungeons and Dragons games didn't have any more than six characters, and nobody had a problem with it. In fact, my criticism for the Warriors Orochi series is that it DOES have dozens upon dozens of characters with varying degrees of significance to the plot. And with its successor, Musou Stars, they're actually scaling down the roster to try to rectify that. In my opinion, this decision is a wise one.
The best modern example of a beat-em-up that gets the character roster thing right is Valkyrie Drive: Bhikkhuni. I'm watching a Let's Play of Bhikkhuni, because I can't afford to actually get the game right now, but from what I've seen, it fixes the biggest problem with the Versus series. It has no more than seven characters, and they're all being treated fairly. No one is being pushed to the side, and nobody is being placed above anybody else. In my opinion, this is a model that more beat-em-ups should try to follow. Quality over quantity. We didn't need to have dozens upon dozens of characters in our beat-em-ups in arcades, on Super Nintendo, or on Sega Genesis. Why should it be any different now?
|
|
|
|
Post by Poog on Dec 21, 2016 17:44:25 GMT -5
Hyrule Warriors seems to be about the right size roster. At the same time, beat em ups are often about being flashy and fun, not themed around statistics and the most optimal play. Thats exactly why they get bloated; people wanna see new styles instead of the same things changed up a little bit here and there.
As for why its different now, its cause now you have more hardware power to get it done, and expectations to meet. The only real problems with it are that some get the short end of the stick story-wise, and some less variety amongst moves unless the time permits.
|
|
|
|
Post by omnimegami on Dec 22, 2016 11:01:27 GMT -5
I dunno why critics have to be so conservative and limiting views with selection. enough is never enough, even if you feel it's enough, it's not enough for others.  fighting games can have 200+ characters in MUGEN, there's really no limit for beat em ups, and the more the merrier and does enhance replay value and more different designed characters to play as. more playable characters > deeper character development. when it's all said and done, story is not going to keep players interested in a game, it's the selection, and the larger the selection, the more ways to experience it, even if they have the same moves, it's still a different character. character creation is a valuable feature too, it can potentially expand the playable selection possibilities to the hundreds, thousands or beyond |
|
|
|
Post by Poog on Dec 22, 2016 16:39:40 GMT -5
Well it depends. Enough CAN be enough if it means characters are getting shafted in terms of story in a story based game, though it is sometimes fine for characters to just be total nobody side characters. That said, Mugen also has a ton of people constantly working on it for free with very few limitations and its a constant project, its also broken as all hell, so Mugen is probably the most unfair example to ever exist.
Some people would also argue that deeper character development > more playable characters, especially in Senran if one is going off of Burst and Deep Crimson. In the PS games, it should be more along the lines of equivalent. Remember, its not just your opinion that becomes fact. It varies from game to game. If its an established series like Zelda and Hyrule Warriors, it doesnt really need development for the most part, since everyone is pre-established.
That said, character creation defies the purpose of a lot of beat em ups that used pre-established characters. Senran, Hyrule Warriors, even that Gamecube TMNT one, it just doesnt fit to use character creation. It'd take a new IP type deal to make it work.
|
|
|
|
Post by Juihau on Dec 23, 2016 15:03:13 GMT -5
Honestly, Warriors-like games are more a subgenre of beat em ups at this point. Their whole appeal tends to go against the idea of having significant depth; they're to make the player feel powerful and badass, and being able to pick up any of their characters with relative ease kind of goes along with that. That's why they're often not particularly difficult, and have a lot of characters to help facilitate that "I can play every single one of these with no problem" feeling. It's a bit unfair to compare them to something like Final Fight, since they've become a different beast altogether. I'd say at this point, certain hack n slashes like Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta have more in common with the beat em ups of old, really. Small rosters (often one character with multiple weapon choices) that have extremely extensive move pools, lower numbers of much more dangerous enemies, fairly linear level design, and so on. fighting games can have 200+ characters in MUGEN, there's really no limit for beat em ups, and the more the merrier and does enhance replay value and more different designed characters to play as. You do realize MUGEN isn't really a game in itself so much as a tool designed to help people make their own fighting games, right? That's like saying RPGMaker is a game. |
|
|
|
Post by ateliertohka on Jan 11, 2017 23:53:26 GMT -5
I really think the Ninja Gaiden/Bayonetta route is a better idea than the Warriors route. One well-done character is better than a bunch of characters with no real substance in gameplay. This is why I have a problem with stressing more playable characters because in Warriors games, you may have dozens upon dozens of characters, but you don't really do much with any of them in terms of gameplay. Another problem is story. Like Poog mentioned, enough Can be enough if characters are being shafted to the side and their story sacrificed completely, especially when the story is a big part of the game. That's why I don't really like Warriors Orochi 3 the way most other people do. The plot never seemed to take a break from just throwing random characters in that ultimately proved to contribute nothing to the story, making them nothing more than filler. I really don't think that's a good thing, since the story WILL keep a lot of people interested, or at least people like me. I could go on and on, really, but the point is, more characters isn't always a good thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by tzitzimine on Jan 12, 2017 3:03:58 GMT -5
Jui is right, the genre has evolved over time and spread on multiple spin offs genres. Games like Dynasty Warriors have little to do with the beat em ups of old and in fact, stupidly massive rosters are a given on those kind of games. This is hardly an issue for them because they are more or less pure fanservice. Pick your favorite character and go nuts on the endless waves of enemies with little regard for plot or characterization.
Games like DMC or Bayonetta on the other hand, are considered Hack&Slash/Character Action games and that genre has also evolved a lot from classic beat em ups, having a heavy focus on developing the protagonist via the massive movement pools and complex mechanics the game has to offer. Due this, is extremely rare for those game to have big rosters since they more about quality over quantity.
In contrast, classic beat em up games tend to have larger rosters but with few differences between them beyond aesthetics and stats.
|
|
