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Post by augen on Dec 14, 2012 12:27:42 GMT -5
There has been a bit of heated discussion about the upcoming Shinovi Versus on Vita title and thought give a bit more objectivity and step back with this thread. The idea is to break down what one likes and dislikes about the genre of hack and slash. For frame of reference the most well known series is the Dynasty Warriors one. So, two recent hack and slash games I've played provided a positive and mixed to negative experience and thought about why this was. This is NOT to say what is good or bad, rather your own tastes. The two games in question are "Bleach: Soul Resureccion" and "Fist of the North Star: Ken's Rage" both for the Playstation 3. Both of these are based of existing intellectual properties of manga and anime, but feel they illustrate certain points.
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Post by augen on Dec 14, 2012 12:28:08 GMT -5
So, let's break down what you do in these games. 1. Movement This may seem insanely obvious, but what a difference how this small mechanic is handled can make in having fun or not. What I like
In Bleach you move at two speeds, your base walking around and a dash (by pressing L2). The dash is infinite and great for getting from point A to B quickly and I will revisit how it actually plays a huge role in combos. Simply put, moving in Bleach is fast, fun without ever feeling loose. What I do not like
In Ken's Rage movement works on a momentum based system where you walk until you hold walk for a while and engage a run. This means generally the game is slower paced especially if you stop to check on items. Annoying in instances where you have to back track.
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Post by augen on Dec 14, 2012 12:28:42 GMT -5
2. Fighting The key aspect and the make or break part of the games. Now both games have some merits here and some things can be chalked up to source material, but I still have preference. To me hack and slash should be simple to learn with some intricacies to separate beginners and more advanced players. What I like In Bleach you have 4 ways to attack 1. Square does base attack 2. Triangle does a light spirit attack that drains a bit of your spirit gauge 3. Circle does a strong spirit attack that drains a lot of your spirit gauge 4. When in super mode you can press L2 to release and do an ultimate attack Why does this work for me? Well, being simple means I can dive in and know good and well what every button press will do. No miss communication at all from the first time I played it. You truly learn and build when to use which attacks in certain scenarios to better your combos and overall ratings. What I do not like In Ken's Rage you have a fast attack, a strong attack and a signature move. To me the big difference was I tended to input combos more finding a particular move that was the most effective leaving the rest to rot. So while Ken's Rage has more moves I tended to find many to be rather useless. Also, the signature move is mainly for bosses, which is fine but means no real awesome mass crowd control attack that I found. I will say do get more of a sense of impact with Ken than Bleach so give it credit there. Neutral I should note the games also have block features which is fine, but for me these games are more about a constant onslaught. If you prefer slower paced more methodical then there you go; I like fast and frenetic.
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Post by augen on Dec 14, 2012 12:29:17 GMT -5
3. Combo System This builds off of combat as part of what makes hack and slash what they are. Both games have a meter that increases numerically as you land hits, go too long without hitting something and resets to zero. What I like In Bleach at first I thought getting to 200 was good, but with some practice I was able to quickly get to 500 and after learning more of the ins and outs suddenly 1,600 or up seemed possible (assuming had enough things to kill). So, why was this? Well, to touch on earlier point if you hit anything, including the environment the meter keeps going, this means if you dash into enemies or objects you can chain the combo. For example, clear a room, dash to next room hitting a rock along the way and instead of two 200 combos, you have one 400 combo. Rinse and repeat throughout to really rack up the huge numbers. Learning enemy and item locations is critical and real sense of pay off when you plan out a mission and successfully link combos to nail that "S" score. What I do not like Ken's Rage for me tended to be rack up a combo in a room and watch it die as travel to next area. This meant I rarely had great combos. That and the infuriating snipers stun and knocking me back (in Bleach annoying flying enemies can be killed with mass attacks). This led to a slower plodding sense where my characters would feel very powerful, but in a lumbering sense. Again, could just be way they are, but not my cup of tea.
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Post by augen on Dec 14, 2012 12:29:43 GMT -5
4. Leveling upMan, do I love level progression in games. That sense of growth and improvement is why I have loved RPGs for years and like seeing it implemented in other genres. To level in both games there is a grid where points accumulated during missions are spent to improve attributes. Yet, again, I found favoring one way of handling this over another. What I like In Bleach you gain points by killing enemies, breaking objects and then end mission bonuses like your time and all. So, you get 500 points and can spend it on attack, defense, life, spirit gauge or special abilities. Two aspects to touch on here, one I liked, one I have mixed feelings on. The grid is laid out so all characters are placed on it. So, when you start with a character you are on their area and must get so many upgrades to unlock and move other areas of the board. A criticism of this system some have levied is that to unlock all the upgrades you are forced to play as many of the characters. Now, I’ll concede this could be bothersome, but two facts mitigated any annoyance I experienced. 1. You do not have to play with everyone as multiple paths so crappy characters (Barragan…) can be avoided. 2. You only need to play a few times with most to “unlock” their area and go back to your favorites leveling up. I actually am fine with this as I tend to try out characters anyway and this just added a bit as to why you would bother on trial basis with everyone. Could it be scaled a bit better? Sure, but I was okay with it. What I do not like In Ken’s Rage you acquire skill points from battle, but the best place I found is via item drops. So, on replays of missions you come to memorize where these drops are as they are very valuable as expediting leveling. Leveling is handled on a grid, but everyone is completely segregated so no overlap. That is fine; except I found in leveling I pretty much leveled any character in similar fashion due to less options on paths. When you add that leveling becomes increasingly difficult because I found that while cost increased I was accruing about the same amount of points as always did. Honestly, it is very possible I was handling this game wrong, but that was my experience.
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Post by augen on Dec 14, 2012 12:30:02 GMT -5
5. MiscellaneousLeft over aspects of the game includes environment and visual aesthetics. Bleach uses cel shading which even though both environments were indicative of the genre (barren, invisible walls, etc.) it felt more rich and colorful. Again, FotNS is a pretty bleak story so could chalk much of its dour outlook to that. I will say breaking objects in Bleach was much easier and satisfying and played more into strategy of getting high scores, so that was a big plus. Summary When it comes to hack and slash games I want an experience I can jump into with minimal tutorial, but offers depth within it learn how to go from scoring a “C” or “B” to an “A” or “S” ranking. I prefer fast paced to keep the level moving even if the level is pretty bare bones it feels active and never linger too much. I like a colorful cast that offers distinct game play styles to find my favorites and offers incentives to keep playing and experiment. Boiled down I want that sense of being a bad ass and growing into an unstoppable force as I learn and level up. One of these hit all of those (Bleach) and one did not (Fist of the North Star) so much. So, what are your thoughts? What do you like form the genre? I have a suggestion to try Sengoku Basara so I will report on that in time.
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Post by FlamingYu on Dec 14, 2012 12:49:05 GMT -5
can you make you images smaller? It's kinda stretching the board.
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Post by augen on Dec 14, 2012 13:04:02 GMT -5
can you make you images smaller? It's kinda stretching the board. My apologies, offending content has been removed. Thoughts on the topic?
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Post by FlamingYu on Dec 14, 2012 13:19:38 GMT -5
Is "Fist of the North Star Musou" that bad? No.2 is coming out soon. I pass on this cause there's not enough female characters Only Kenshiro interest me and that only girl in game(?). And the whole thread seems to be about what you like and don't in Hack Slash games.
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Post by Yomi on Dec 14, 2012 13:45:47 GMT -5
You know what would be good, a Sailor Moon Musou game especially since the remake airs next Summer, you'd have the fanbase eating it up and now since the series is widely known a US release is possible in which the other games never got and definitely a European release, Italy already got a game in the series and France did as well.
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Post by augen on Dec 14, 2012 14:09:39 GMT -5
Is "Fist of the North Star Musou" that bad? No.2 is coming out soon. I pass on this cause there's not enough female characters Only Kenshiro interest me and that only girl in game(?). It is okay, it has its merits, just does not appeal to me That is exactly what the thread is about. I thought I stated that in the first post. So, what do you like and dislike about these type of games?
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Post by Hinata on Dec 15, 2012 0:34:04 GMT -5
Funny, I just played Bleach for the first time today.
I have no problem with movement speed, although you can't expect Bleach-like movement in every hack n slash
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Post by augen on Dec 15, 2012 9:31:12 GMT -5
Funny, I just played Bleach for the first time today. I have no problem with movement speed, although you can't expect Bleach-like movement in every hack n slash I would like your thoughts on it. Of course, I was stating how the movement played into other aspects (environment and combo meter) of the game. Here is what I was hoping. For everyone to state a game in the genre they like or dislike (one of each be nice) and why they feel that way. No right or wrong here, just expressing opinions.
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Post by Yomi on Dec 15, 2012 12:19:04 GMT -5
The only thing I don't like so much in hack and slash titles are the large number of Hard Mode Perks in some of them (Sengoku Musou and Basara especially), it really needs to be reduced by half.
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Post by Dai-T on Dec 16, 2012 20:00:52 GMT -5
The transition of SK going in to Hack n slash is not a big one because the game already has HnS elements the problem is adapting and expanding the systems and being original.
From Aguen's write up it should be closer to bleach in many ways. but how they handle the systems this time is very much up in the air.
I have a question do any of these games have throws? Seems adding throws to SK system would really shake things up.
I guess that would be my like to have more throws for more situations. Dislike would be less freedom over movement.
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