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Post by solaris on Feb 25, 2014 17:09:59 GMT -5
Hello, guys. It's me again.
I was reading an interview from Hayao Miyasaki (Creator of Princess Momonoke), talking about otakus in the anime's industry. Check this out:
en.rocketnews24.com/2014/01/30/ghiblis-hayao-miyazaki-says-the-anime-industrys-problem-is-that-its-full-of-anime-fans/
This interview let me thinking in one question; and here is the question.
Is Senran Kagura another kind of empty and non-human series, with no artistic value and just fan service?
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Post by CrimsonIkaruga on Feb 25, 2014 17:17:11 GMT -5
I remember that article. Technically, one could say SK fits that description, since the thought of boobs in 3D is allegedly what inspired the game. However, I think the portions that delve into the characters' motivations, thoughts, and feelings help give it some artistic value, even if it's nothing new.
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Post by Dai-T on Feb 25, 2014 19:30:31 GMT -5
There is gameplay value because it is a game first not an anime thats why the series is still an outsider to the otaku crowd at least. There is the fanservice but it's backed by actual gameplay.
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Post by [Vitz!] on Feb 26, 2014 0:02:05 GMT -5
The answer is No. Senran Kagura goes beyond just boobs and ecchi (the "fanservice" is only applied when the work has fans in the first place, and ecchi is not necessarily fanservice. You can't call fanservice what they did in Portrait of Girls for instance because the game didn't even have fans when it first launched). It goes as far as showing some cool values (that lots of other people already done, but still) that are shown specially in Burst when we see the dilema between good and evil shinobi (and the game puts this in a way that kind of remembers me of the Shin Megami Tensei [forget Persona] series discussion about good and evil). The characters are not a bunch of empty bodies with boobs and have cool pasts to back them up. They are girls that you start to like because of their personalities and despite the sexual appeal they all have they are a lot more independent than 90% of the girls you see in shonen (specially Naruto) to a point to even start to sound "feministic" at some times (The series even passes The Bechdel Test too!!). It is NOT only the ecchi. The series IS GOOD have AWESOME POTENTIAL. To have and idea of how interesting Senran Kagura really is I recomend you all to see the Televison Tropes article about the series. It says a lot of things you probably didn't even notice.
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Post by Dai-T on Feb 26, 2014 3:59:50 GMT -5
The answer is No. Senran Kagura goes beyond just boobs and ecchi (the "fanservice" is only applied when the work has fans in the first place, and ecchi is not necessarily fanservice. You can't call fanservice what they did in Portrait of Girls for instance because the game didn't even have fans when it first launched). It goes as far as showing some cool values (that lots of other people already done, but still) that are shown specially in Burst when we see the dilema between good and evil shinobi (and the game puts this in a way that kind of remembers me of the Shin Megami Tensei [forget Persona] series discussion about good and evil). The characters are not a bunch of empty bodies with boobs and have cool pasts to back them up. They are girls that you start to like because of their personalities and despite the sexual appeal they all have they are a lot more independent than 90% of the girls you see in shonen (specially Naruto) to a point to even start to sound "feministic" at some times (The series even passes The Bechdel Test too!!). It is NOT only the ecchi. The series IS GOOD have AWESOME POTENTIAL. To have and idea of how interesting Senran Kagura really is I recomend you all to see the Televison Tropes article about the series. It says a lot of things you probably didn't even notice. Too long of an answer it makes you look like your defending the series and not it defending itself. Learn to make your answer for this short and you will be ok. You can say, even if you take the sex out it's still a cool game in an unrepresented genre 2d beat em ups. Not many of those today in this time. So it would get attention regardless.
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Post by [Vitz!] on Feb 26, 2014 4:14:58 GMT -5
But I was defending the series (despite the fact I only played Burst an watched the anime) an my answer wasn't that big. .-.
And I think I said enough about the series without getting too much in details... So it kinda "defends itself" because to really know what I meant one must play the actual game.
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Post by Dai-T on Feb 26, 2014 6:04:13 GMT -5
But I was defending the series (despite the fact I only played Burst an watched the anime) an my answer wasn't that big. .-. And I think I said enough about the series without getting too much in details... So it kinda "defends itself" because to really know what I meant one must play the actual game. Problem is you compared it to other things and put them down to make this look good you would get called out for that and be labeled a fanboy and everything you say after that won't matter. You can't get sucked in to the fanboy camp and putting down other series is an easy way to do that. If you need some thing to back up your defense you can say this producer made half minute hero an rpg game while prased did not make alot of money. SK is his major break out game and it's similar to HMH as they both don't take themselfs serious but you need a hook to sell the game no matter how good it is.
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Post by Dai-T on Feb 26, 2014 6:18:37 GMT -5
If you mention that test people will know you was ready and say "why are you so defensive"
I guess you missed that thread on neogaf which lead to this very thing.
Also the producer said it's a boob game so that also will be used against any argument you put up.
If someone says boobs you say marketing. If that say why you throw out his other games he worked on like half minute hero. Then sales.
Once you bring the argument there it becomes much easier for you.
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Post by ialda on Feb 26, 2014 11:32:19 GMT -5
Nothing new, Miyazaki has been very vocal against the otaku culture since the 80s (and what was then called the 'anime-boom'). Ironically, he also has been one of the major proponent of what is now known as 'moe' and the fighting girls complex with his female protagonists, from Cagliostro's Clarisse to Nausicaa. I do share his opinion that current anime major problem is that it relies too much on the otaku sub-segment of the population, thought, and it has an insidious effect as it limits the appeal of anime to the great majority of people as most of the production is only aimed at a cultural 'ghetto' of anime fans. It hasn't always been the case, one of the reasons of this shift being the demographics of Japan. Is Senran Kagura another kind of empty and non-human series, with no artistic value and just fan service? It depends in part on what appeal to you personnaly in the franchise, I think.
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Post by solaris on Feb 26, 2014 23:32:16 GMT -5
Nothing new, Miyazaki has been very vocal against the otaku culture since the 80s (and what was then called the 'anime-boom'). Ironically, he also has been one of the major proponent of what is now known as 'moe' and the fighting girls complex with his female protagonists, from Cagliostro's Clarisse to Nausicaa. I do share his opinion that current anime major problem is that it relies too much on the otaku sub-segment of the population, thought, and it has an insidious effect as it limits the appeal of anime to the great majority of people as most of the production is only aimed at a cultural 'ghetto' of anime fans. It hasn't always been the case, one of the reasons of this shift being the demographics of Japan. Is Senran Kagura another kind of empty and non-human series, with no artistic value and just fan service? It depends in part on what appeal to you personnaly in the franchise, I think. Sooo... was Miyazaki the creator of the actual concept of 'moe' and girls in fighting games?
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Post by augen on Feb 27, 2014 11:26:59 GMT -5
Every form of art deals with market forces once people see can make money from it. One could argue that film or television in general is less because the majority do not want high art, but rather to be entertained. To me, have to accept that this is part of life and people will always enjoy things you do not.
The state of anime is same now as it was 20 years ago with mix of good, bad and average.
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Post by Dai-T on Feb 27, 2014 12:32:21 GMT -5
Every form of art deals with market forces once people see can make money from it. One could argue that film or television in general is less because the majority do not want high art, but rather to be entertained. To me, have to accept that this is part of life and people will always enjoy things you do not. Not really the same. My guess is before a show gets the green light they talk merchandise and fan base and other was to get money when before it was about making a statment and pride. The state of anime is same now as it was 20 years ago with mix of good, bad and average.
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Post by augen on Feb 27, 2014 15:09:53 GMT -5
"Not really the same. My guess is before a show gets the green light they talk merchandise and fan base and other was to get money when before it was about making a statment and pride."
Again, how many hollywood films get made these days with and eye on franchise or merchandise?
Anime is no exception to the art/business clash.
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Post by Dai-T on Feb 27, 2014 15:58:48 GMT -5
"Not really the same. My guess is before a show gets the green light they talk merchandise and fan base and other was to get money when before it was about making a statment and pride." Again, how many hollywood films get made these days with and eye on franchise or merchandise? Anime is no exception to the art/business clash. But what im talking is budget. Sure you can do it on your own but you won't have a wide release and you have to hope from word of mouth you are picked up by a distributor. Not like making something based off of something where the studio know they can get the money back in other ways. There will always be eyes on a franchise if they can make it. Sk was only suppose to be one game and done.
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Post by ialda on Feb 28, 2014 10:12:02 GMT -5
Sooo... was Miyazaki the creator of the actual concept of 'moe' and girls in fighting games? No, Beautiful fighting girl. It's not the same. Think Mononoke's San, Nausicaa, Ayanami Rei. Every form of art deals with market forces once people see can make money from it. One could argue that film or television in general is less because the majority do not want high art, but rather to be entertained. To me, have to accept that this is part of life and people will always enjoy things you do not. In my eyes, people want high art but they have been trained to think they do not, because of 1/ marketing, which is akin to brainwash and which is used to sell people crap (your typical brain-dead movie blockbuster would sell much less without it) and 2/ the way classics are taught to kids in school. For me, a classic is something that succeed to exceed itself and manage to adress truly universal themes - life, love, death, growing up, ambition, time... - in an universal fashion. It may take experience and maturity to approach them at first, hence dedicated teachers able to explain them and help students to approach and understand them. But we live in a culture which divides between low and high-art (aka "accessible" and "snob"), where art has to be succesful commercially, but it miss the point of what art should be about. Sorry for being off-topic ^^
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