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Post by thesameguy on Apr 10, 2015 15:51:40 GMT -5
Aren't we in a metaphorical pickle?
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Post by [Vitz!] on Apr 10, 2015 16:13:47 GMT -5
Sort of... ... I don't know. Anyway, I don't know why Seventh was saying the same thing over and over again. I'm not near convinced that we should maintain that "stillness" for long. I don't say that the franchise will tire out now (it is too early to assume that), but after a few games it will tire and changes will need to be made. The public can be satisfied with that stillness, but the developers and specially Takaki won't be satisfied by that. No artist would, actualy. Doing the same thing over and over again is a tiring process. Then there is a possibility of what the developers would do in that situation: They would continue the series as it is for "eternity", but eventualy the game would become a chore and there would be a possibility that Takaki would leave the team responsible for Senran Kagura and work in something else. Somebody would fill the space Takaki left and if you know how those things work you know that isn't a good thing. Specially if his subistitute doesn't get what Senran Kagura truly is and do a DmC reboot or something with that caliber. Sounds "scary"? That's what I think when I suggest a change. ... Maybe the pickle metaphor isn't so farfetched huh |
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Post by Seventh on Apr 10, 2015 17:44:39 GMT -5
Anyway, I don't know why Seventh was saying the same thing over and over again. I'm not near convinced that we should maintain that "stillness" for long. I don't say that the franchise will tire out now (it is too early to assume that), but after a few games it will tire and changes will need to be made. The public can be satisfied with that stillness, but the developers and specially Takaki won't be satisfied by that. No artist would, actualy. Doing the same thing over and over again is a tiring process. Then there is a possibility of what the developers would do in that situation: They would continue the series as it is for "eternity", but eventualy the game would become a chore and there would be a possibility that Takaki would leave the team responsible for Senran Kagura and work in something else. Somebody would fill the space Takaki left and if you know how those things work you know that isn't a good thing. Specially if his subistitute doesn't get what Senran Kagura truly is and do a DmC reboot or something with that caliber. Sounds "scary"? That's what I think when I suggest a change. ... Maybe the pickle metaphor isn't so farfetched huh Was I?  Sometimes you can tell when I post on my phone because I can't see 90% of what I'm writing so I guess I might end up repeating myself sometimes. But why can't changes be made in other areas? Why can't they explore other types of games rather than just abandoning everything the series has for something else? That said, I disagree about the "no artist would" thing. Certainly, some would, maybe even most would, but I think there are also plenty who will find something they like to do and create and could be perfectly content just creating it. I really don't think we're in a situation where, just by having the same cast, they're doing "the same thing over and over again" in the first place anyway, which is my biggest issue with these suggestions - they seem completely unnecessary based on where the franchise is now. I think they could go another five years at least before even thinking about so drastic changes as the ones being suggested, in all honesty. |
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Post by [Vitz!] on Apr 10, 2015 18:46:56 GMT -5
If you think the things I suggest are drastic you have to see what I hear from some people... They would remove a lot of things from the series and would really destroy it.
Sometimes I just think you found a comfort zone about Senran Kagura... lol
And no artist would in my opinion. Being satisfied by such things is not something an artist or someone who considers what he/she does art would. This type of thing is reserved to people who see what they do as a mere product and just want to sell, not an artists... or to artists who don't want to grow and stay in their comfort zones, an easy path and rarely praised by fellow artists if they praise something like that at all. I say that as an artist and as an visual arts student.
But I do agree that Takaki can still make things like they are now, but that won't be forever...
And my suggestions come from ideas I had after playing Burst, a game that has a fair share of both "dark" and "light" themes in my opinion. I only suggested dark themes because I didn't think about anything that would balance them, but that doesn't mean I don't want the series to still have their "lightness". Au contraire, mister. I also love that part of the series, but I want to see the balance used in Burst also present in other games and I gave my suggestions for the dark side. Feel free to suggest things to brighten things a little bit.
As for using the same cast. Yes, they are not completely repeating themselves by using them over and over again, but it depends on how you use the characters. If you don't explore more sides of the characters personalities (like they are doing with some characters we know very well) they will become a chore and that's what I'm trying to suggest when I explore their darker side.
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Post by Dai-T on Apr 10, 2015 19:37:21 GMT -5
Aren't we in a metaphorical pickle? yup because in this series characters don't move foward as they should so now we have a bunch of girls standing around with more added. series has like 90 girls right? |
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Post by Seventh on Apr 10, 2015 22:26:32 GMT -5
Sometimes I just think you found a comfort zone about Senran Kagura... lol You kidding? I think Burst's writing is some of the worst I've ever had the misfortune to encounter in a video game! If I could change things and not kill the series in the process, we'd be having a very different conversation. I'm just trying to be realistic and thinking about what will keep the series alive, and drastic changes, or even changes that seem natural but could be taken by the extreme fans to be drastic, are what spell disaster. For instance, I actually loved the idea of SCV, and I would have loved to see an SCVI continuing in that direction but more fleshed out. My only problem with SCV was that it was short - that's really it. As far as Neptunia goes, I'd much prefer the slate wiped clean every game so we could get new consoles and new scenarios with each installment - I think there's a huge loss of potential with that franchise by sticking with the same characters. I get where you're coming from, but I just don't think it's a realistic or viable move if they want to keep this series running. I mean if it were up to me, even on a small scale, I'd consider something "drastic" like a small reboot or some retconning at least to make the idea of introducing more characters easier, but I just don't think those things would necessarily be welcome. The hardcore fans, many of whom fund this series, don't like change. And so they are who you must bend to. And no artist would in my opinion. Being satisfied by such things is not something an artist or someone who considers what he/she does art would. This type of thing is reserved to people who see what they do as a mere product and just want to sell, not an artists... or to artists who don't want to grow and stay in their comfort zones, an easy path and rarely praised by fellow artists if they praise something like that at all. I say that as an artist and as an visual arts student. As an aspiring writer and also as just a human being, I strongly disagree with that. People are different and people can be satisfied by different things. I've seen a lot of writers who often rely on the same things or do the same things in their works, even when they work for different studios and companies. Isn't that, at least partly, part of what having your own style is? But I do agree that Takaki can still make things like they are now, but that won't be forever... I think they could be! Look at Mario. And my suggestions come from ideas I had after playing Burst, a game that has a fair share of both "dark" and "light" themes in my opinion. I only suggested dark themes because I didn't think about anything that would balance them, but that doesn't mean I don't want the series to still have their "lightness". Au contraire, mister. I also love that part of the series, but I want to see the balance used in Burst also present in other games and I gave my suggestions for the dark side. Feel free to suggest things to brighten things a little bit. As for using the same cast. Yes, they are not completely repeating themselves by using them over and over again, but it depends on how you use the characters. If you don't explore more sides of the characters personalities (like they are doing with some characters we know very well) they will become a chore and that's what I'm trying to suggest when I explore their darker side. I... really don't think Burst had balance at all, honestly. I also think your premise could be plenty light too, but it's the premise itself (leaving the setting/ages as is now) that I think is the biggest problem, not making things darker. If you want to do darker stuff, do it right now, for instance. Make a game where the demon world eats half of Japan and future games are dealing with an ongoing demon-versus-human war - but just make sure to not change the characters too drastically from what fans are accustomed to. Explore them, definitely, but games aren't books. They can't grow and develop from entry to entry - the book ends with each game and starts over with the same cast and world with each new one. Character development isn't something you can have in ongoing series for this reason - you make it inaccessible for newcomers. With a book, they'll know it's not the first book, but games always have to be welcoming to new players, and having a huge story or even a small story that builds too much off previous games, unless you have a bunch of other games or are a big enough franchise that you can get away with it, is just too risky. And personally, my biggest suggestion would be to never do anything dark ever because, in my opinion, Burst's attempts at seriousness were just... really really bad. They often just fell flat and took me out of the game instead of getting me more pumped up, which was the intention - they were shallow and forced more than anything. Katsuragi's idiotic resolution with her magic dog perfectly exemplifies how terrible Burst's writing was. You don't build up something for an entire game and then wipe it all away with an unbelievable scene completely out of left field like that. If not for the characters being likeable and the sex appeal, I would not be able to fathom how this made it past the horrendous first game to get the slightly more redeeming Burst, which still wasn't all that great . I'd turn the series into something explicitly slice of ninja life with occasional serious stuff, but never do anything built around being serious unless they can call in someone competent to handle it. |
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Post by [Vitz!] on Apr 10, 2015 23:11:26 GMT -5
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Post by Dai-T on Apr 11, 2015 7:42:57 GMT -5
Sometimes I just think you found a comfort zone about Senran Kagura... lol You kidding? I think Burst's writing is some of the worst I've ever had the misfortune to encounter in a video game! If I could change things and not kill the series in the process, we'd be having a very different conversation. I'm just trying to be realistic and thinking about what will keep the series alive, and drastic changes, or even changes that seem natural but could be taken by the extreme fans to be drastic, are what spell disaster. For instance, I actually loved the idea of SCV, and I would have loved to see an SCVI continuing in that direction but more fleshed out. My only problem with SCV was that it was short - that's really it. As far as Neptunia goes, I'd much prefer the slate wiped clean every game so we could get new consoles and new scenarios with each installment - I think there's a huge loss of potential with that franchise by sticking with the same characters. I get where you're coming from, but I just don't think it's a realistic or viable move if they want to keep this series running. I mean if it were up to me, even on a small scale, I'd consider something "drastic" like a small reboot or some retconning at least to make the idea of introducing more characters easier, but I just don't think those things would necessarily be welcome. The hardcore fans, many of whom fund this series, don't like change. And so they are who you must bend to. And no artist would in my opinion. Being satisfied by such things is not something an artist or someone who considers what he/she does art would. This type of thing is reserved to people who see what they do as a mere product and just want to sell, not an artists... or to artists who don't want to grow and stay in their comfort zones, an easy path and rarely praised by fellow artists if they praise something like that at all. I say that as an artist and as an visual arts student. As an aspiring writer and also as just a human being, I strongly disagree with that. People are different and people can be satisfied by different things. I've seen a lot of writers who often rely on the same things or do the same things in their works, even when they work for different studios and companies. Isn't that, at least partly, part of what having your own style is? But I do agree that Takaki can still make things like they are now, but that won't be forever... I think they could be! Look at Mario. And my suggestions come from ideas I had after playing Burst, a game that has a fair share of both "dark" and "light" themes in my opinion. I only suggested dark themes because I didn't think about anything that would balance them, but that doesn't mean I don't want the series to still have their "lightness". Au contraire, mister. I also love that part of the series, but I want to see the balance used in Burst also present in other games and I gave my suggestions for the dark side. Feel free to suggest things to brighten things a little bit. As for using the same cast. Yes, they are not completely repeating themselves by using them over and over again, but it depends on how you use the characters. If you don't explore more sides of the characters personalities (like they are doing with some characters we know very well) they will become a chore and that's what I'm trying to suggest when I explore their darker side. I... really don't think Burst had balance at all, honestly. I also think your premise could be plenty light too, but it's the premise itself (leaving the setting/ages as is now) that I think is the biggest problem, not making things darker. If you want to do darker stuff, do it right now, for instance. Make a game where the demon world eats half of Japan and future games are dealing with an ongoing demon-versus-human war - but just make sure to not change the characters too drastically from what fans are accustomed to. Explore them, definitely, but games aren't books. They can't grow and develop from entry to entry - the book ends with each game and starts over with the same cast and world with each new one. Character development isn't something you can have in ongoing series for this reason - you make it inaccessible for newcomers. With a book, they'll know it's not the first book, but games always have to be welcoming to new players, and having a huge story or even a small story that builds too much off previous games, unless you have a bunch of other games or are a big enough franchise that you can get away with it, is just too risky. And personally, my biggest suggestion would be to never do anything dark ever because, in my opinion, Burst's attempts at seriousness were just... really really bad. They often just fell flat and took me out of the game instead of getting me more pumped up, which was the intention - they were shallow and forced more than anything. Katsuragi's idiotic resolution with her magic dog perfectly exemplifies how terrible Burst's writing was. You don't build up something for an entire game and then wipe it all away with an unbelievable scene completely out of left field like that. If not for the characters being likeable and the sex appeal, I would not be able to fathom how this made it past the horrendous first game to get the slightly more redeeming Burst, which still wasn't all that great . I'd turn the series into something explicitly slice of ninja life with occasional serious stuff, but never do anything built around being serious unless they can call in someone competent to handle it. you do know SK2 was darker then burst lol. so i guess that is a fail. |
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Post by TheAtom on Apr 11, 2015 8:51:00 GMT -5
Simple answer: Move forward and graduate the girls. This will help solving the problem. Specially if you continue using them as professional shinobi since this open a path for a good portion of stories. I still don't really agree with this one, to be honest. I also fail to see the huge issue with what we have now anyway that it's apparently going to be the death of the series. Most long running franchises prove that wrong. So long as this series can manage to have stories in each game, I really don't see why there needs to be any overarching plot or any of this grimdark edgy stuff - in fact, I'd advise against that since it makes new players less inclined to pick up those games. To compare to Neptunia, characters are characters, and the breasts here might be more akin to Neptunia's parodying and referencing things. Those are the things that set those series apart and make them unique - but their characters, if the creators go in that direction, are something separate, core, and constant, and that's true for anything with characters. They're the things you see taking part in those unique things and the things that become just as much a part of the series as those unique things like bouncing or parodying over time. In other words, graduating them wouldn't be so dfferent from killing them off or erasing them - it's the same as what happened in SCV, really. They wouldn't be the characters people know and like anymore. The thing is, people, gamers especially, hate change - if they had wanted to switch up the cast, it needed to happen in the second or third game, not after five, various manga, an anime, and an OVA about this cast. If you want SK with new characters, play Valkyrie Drive. Unless you want the series to end, I don't think it could really handle that big an identity change this far in. The New Waves out and out replacing the cast would just make the New Waves end up hated - keeping them as additional things or separate things is the only way to approach that one, though even then, I think you guys are overestimating the importance of it to the franchise as a whole. It's becoming fairly common for franchises to have mobile games with new or even completely different characters that only appear there. It's also common for that mobile game to have its own fans that don't touch the main product - it's a niche within a niche, and catering to it over the majority probably wouldn't do well. That's why giving the New Waves a spinoff could work much better - it doesn't hurt the status quo Marvelous has established for the main games and at the same time it gives us New Waves. That's the way to go there. Sorry if I sound off putting, but seeing how the market turns on people who try to do things like this, uh, yeah. (  ) For the record, I personally think some of these ideas might be interesting, but I just also think they could/would kill the series far sooner than what we have now would. I personally don't think there really needs to be much of an overarching plot either, and they could probably do well enough to put it in one SK universe, rather than a real plot binding them together. At the same time, by creating this timeline, the producers seem to intend an overarching plot type of thing (by carefully placing the 3DS series before the PSV series, and having the NEW Hanzo etc. in New Wave, they at the very least create a very closely interrelated timeline by having the same characters in all of them). I also don't think that keeping the main characters in the main games will kill the series. What I DO think, is that the SK universe could work very well in different formats, and I personally would love to see spin-offs with different characters, and I doubt those would do very badly. In the end, perhaps the Neptunia fanbase reacted badly on changes in the main characters, but even then the Noire LE is the first LE on the European IF-store to get sold out. That means they made an estimate, and within about 2 months, they sold out entirely, all the while releasing almost two Vita games PER MONTH. That does show that, while there was some backlash, it was still popular enough for a European release to do fairly well. I think SK could work the same way. I'm not talking changing the main characters for the main series, I'm talking changing the main characters for spin-off games. And then for the real weeaboos around, they can Yumi and Asuka as DLC or something. And no worries, I understand the tone, and I understand your concerns. =] I also just LOVE some of the New Wave characters and I'm DYING to see them in some REAL action, and not 2D cards, and simple chibi animations... |
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Post by Dai-T on Apr 11, 2015 18:11:24 GMT -5
if anything the original 10 have to go or get side rolls they not take up anymore space.
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Post by Seventh on Apr 11, 2015 18:52:03 GMT -5
What I DO think, is that the SK universe could work very well in different formats, and I personally would love to see spin-offs with different characters, and I doubt those would do very badly. In the end, perhaps the Neptunia fanbase reacted badly on changes in the main characters, but even then the Noire LE is the first LE on the European IF-store to get sold out. That means they made an estimate, and within about 2 months, they sold out entirely, all the while releasing almost two Vita games PER MONTH. That does show that, while there was some backlash, it was still popular enough for a European release to do fairly well. I think SK could work the same way. I'm not talking changing the main characters for the main series, I'm talking changing the main characters for spin-off games. And then for the real weeaboos around, they can Yumi and Asuka as DLC or something. And no worries, I understand the tone, and I understand your concerns. =] I also just LOVE some of the New Wave characters and I'm DYING to see them in some REAL action, and not 2D cards, and simple chibi animations... Spin-offs seems like a great way to go for me. They open the doors for all kinds of experimenting and testing out new ideas, while still, at least at the time, letting fans know that the "real" thing is safe and not being bothered in the main series. It's a good formula, and if it works well enough, then you could even, in theory, split a series off into multiple series, like a lot of older franchises have and like how even SK arguably may be doing now with the Versus games. I knew I couldn't be alone...!  Briefly returning to Neptunia for a sec too, I kind of think think part of Neptunia's problem was that they really screwed up with the non-Neptune CPUs. They were heavily marketed as leads in the first game, but were just rivals that you could unlock for the True Ending through a hidden game mechanic, and they were reduced to unlockable roles yet again in MK2. Considering how popular they were despite their relatively minor roles compared to games after MK2 (Noire was the most popular character before V despite never really being that major a character), I do sort of understand where fans were coming from. The other problem was Nepgear was a fairly standard protagonist compared to Neptune - if they'd given someone more out of the ordinary like that again, it probably would have been differently in that respect too. And yeah, I've said it many times now, I'd love to see the New Waves in more too. I think given the volume of them, some kind of turn based RPG would probably be an ideal starting point, but who knows? Maybe they could make a New Wave Versus at some point to promote the next Versus game and maybe gauge how well the people unaware of NW's existence take to those characters. if anything the original 10 have to go or get side rolls they not take up anymore space. I really don't think so. In fact, I'd argue there's still a lot of room for things to do with them in the setting as it is now. |
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Post by Dai-T on Apr 12, 2015 4:18:37 GMT -5
What I DO think, is that the SK universe could work very well in different formats, and I personally would love to see spin-offs with different characters, and I doubt those would do very badly. In the end, perhaps the Neptunia fanbase reacted badly on changes in the main characters, but even then the Noire LE is the first LE on the European IF-store to get sold out. That means they made an estimate, and within about 2 months, they sold out entirely, all the while releasing almost two Vita games PER MONTH. That does show that, while there was some backlash, it was still popular enough for a European release to do fairly well. I think SK could work the same way. I'm not talking changing the main characters for the main series, I'm talking changing the main characters for spin-off games. And then for the real weeaboos around, they can Yumi and Asuka as DLC or something. And no worries, I understand the tone, and I understand your concerns. =] I also just LOVE some of the New Wave characters and I'm DYING to see them in some REAL action, and not 2D cards, and simple chibi animations... Spin-offs seems like a great way to go for me. They open the doors for all kinds of experimenting and testing out new ideas, while still, at least at the time, letting fans know that the "real" thing is safe and not being bothered in the main series. It's a good formula, and if it works well enough, then you could even, in theory, split a series off into multiple series, like a lot of older franchises have and like how even SK arguably may be doing now with the Versus games. I knew I couldn't be alone...! Briefly returning to Neptunia for a sec too, I kind of think think part of Neptunia's problem was that they really screwed up with the non-Neptune CPUs. They were heavily marketed as leads in the first game, but were just rivals that you could unlock for the True Ending through a hidden game mechanic, and they were reduced to unlockable roles yet again in MK2. Considering how popular they were despite their relatively minor roles compared to games after MK2 (Noire was the most popular character before V despite never really being that major a character), I do sort of understand where fans were coming from. The other problem was Nepgear was a fairly standard protagonist compared to Neptune - if they'd given someone more out of the ordinary like that again, it probably would have been differently in that respect too. And yeah, I've said it many times now, I'd love to see the New Waves in more too. I think given the volume of them, some kind of turn based RPG would probably be an ideal starting point, but who knows? Maybe they could make a New Wave Versus at some point to promote the next Versus game and maybe gauge how well the people unaware of NW's existence take to those characters. if anything the original 10 have to go or get side rolls they not take up anymore space. I really don't think so. In fact, I'd argue there's still a lot of room for things to do with them in the setting as it is now. like what you said they should not do anything deep or serious but it is to late for the original characters to goof off and forget everything. |
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Post by [Vitz!] on Apr 13, 2015 15:32:45 GMT -5
We want Senran Kagura 3DS themes.
That's my suggestion.
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Post by Seventh on Apr 13, 2015 17:24:45 GMT -5
Since it's apparently really hard to get Vita themes over here, I'd say 3DS themes are our only hope.
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Post by tzitzimine on Apr 13, 2015 18:52:21 GMT -5
What is with the weird fixation on dropping the original twelve?
This series is not Precure, SK lives or dies on its cast.
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![[Vitz!] Avatar](http://storage.proboards.com/3513897/avatar/E0o7PtWP25ea1NYurecA.png)
Sometimes you can tell when I post on my phone because I can't see 90% of what I'm writing so I guess I might end up repeating myself sometimes. But why can't changes be made in other areas? Why can't they explore other types of games rather than just abandoning everything the series has for something else?
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