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Post by ateliertohka on Oct 1, 2016 18:22:07 GMT -5
one should also consider that these games are coming of age stories, though. they all kinda deal with certain subjects rather than just being simple good vs evil commentaries. the first games deal with the good vs evil dynamic to begin with. with sk2, it's not that "neither of them want to be ninjas". it's that they figured there were other, better ways of handling the yoma crisis that didn't require killing Kagura, because she never did anything wrong to begin with. it sets up that the top shinobi advisors are rather shady for not giving any clear reason as to why Kagura needed to die, and also that standards in the shinobi world needed to change. there's a reason Kiriya said he believed that the girls were capable of changing the way things worked in the shinobi world. my memory of sk2's story is a little fuzzy, though. particularly when it comes to those advisors or whatever. I'm pretty certain that that's exactly how it went.
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Post by ateliertohka on Oct 1, 2016 19:11:00 GMT -5
SK2 left enough open doors with it's storyline, I think that if a SK3 comes out it will follow up on SK2's story to SOME regard and not just say "oh that didn't happen" and move on. Honestly, very little ninja-y stuff actually happens in the series as a whole anyways, it's mostly just haphazardly mentioned and then someone yells "ALRIGHT LET'S FIGHT NOW". If they were to delve too deep into the ninja side more seriously then they would run the risk of making the girls appear less 'innocent', which wouldn't go over well in one way or another. Plus, the plot is also limited in the fact that this group of pretty much all friends has to fight between each-other CONSTANTLY in order to satisfy the gameplay department. They can only play that 'this fight is for training with eachother/bonding moment!' card so many times before it becomes extremely noticeable that that's the only excuse they have. The only way to FIX that is to constantly have new characters to fight, but that ALSO limits them because of the 'choose your waifu' nature of the cast they realize that if they use one character they're stuck in the series FOREVER (or at least, they SHOULD know this by now, as I'm fairly certain that the main gripe with sk2 was that it didn't have the two other schools), and eventually you just have too many characters to work with and the game suddenly is forced to take a 'quantity over quality' stance because if they REMOVE a character somebody out there is gonna get pissed and it's gonna hit sales. And all because the writing department needed excuses for the gameplay! As is why ninja stuff doesn't really happen too much in the series. The focus on characters over all else simply doesn't allow for a deep plot about assassinations and the like to actually happen because it goes against the innocent demeanor of the game. SK2's commercial failure (in Japan anyways, I haven't actually seen how it's fared in the west yet) is probably the final nail in the coffin for this as well, as that game had the darkest atmosphere in the series, and that, to a developer at least, COULD be seen as a reason as to why it didn't succeed. Their issue could be seen by them as, put bluntly, the game not being anime enough. And I'm not really certain that the Japanese fanbase (the only fanbase that the developers can really listen to, mind) actually cares one lick about story anyways, so it could just be seen as a non-issue to them. There's another problem with it, really. There's also the chance that they simply won't be able to include everybody and that some characters may not make the cut due simply to the inability to have all the characters while still keeping the gameplay as best as possible.
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Post by leanmeanlovinmachine on Oct 1, 2016 20:28:27 GMT -5
There's another problem with it, really. There's also the chance that they simply won't be able to include everybody and that some characters may not make the cut due simply to the inability to have all the characters while still keeping the gameplay as best as possible. Exactly. Seems really weird not to include Miyabi and Homura on the site. They'll be in the spin off game but once the actual game is out, I dont think they'll be in it. That'd be fine.
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Post by ateliertohka on Oct 1, 2016 21:11:45 GMT -5
There's another problem with it, really. There's also the chance that they simply won't be able to include everybody and that some characters may not make the cut due simply to the inability to have all the characters while still keeping the gameplay as best as possible. Exactly. Seems really weird not to include Miyabi and Homura on the site. They'll be in the spin off game but once the actual game is out, I dont think they'll be in it. That'd be fine. Their not being on the teaser site still doesn't mean anything. You're still reading way too much into it. We're not at that point yet, and even when we do, Homura and Miyabi likely wouldn't be left out. They're too prominent to omit. It'd be like having Ryu without Ken in Street Fighter. If anyone's going to be omitted, it'll have to be characters that aren't as prominent. Like I said before, taking out prominent characters is like taking away the game's identity. You associate a game series with its most prominent characters. They become a part of how people see the series. Get what I'm saying? So when the time comes when omitting characters is necessary, they need to be careful about deciding who returns, and who doesn't. Prominent characters have to show up. Popular characters have to show up. Really, the only characters that they can afford to omit are those that are neither popular with fans nor prominent in the story. Characters that aren't part of the series' identity the same way those more prominent characters are. Who would you say that those characters are?
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Post by ateliertohka on Oct 1, 2016 21:34:16 GMT -5
Now, keep in mind, these removals wouldn't necessarily be permanent by any means. Fighting game series rotate less prominent characters in and out of the roster all the time. But anyone who leaves can always come back later.
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Post by leanmeanlovinmachine on Oct 1, 2016 22:46:14 GMT -5
Exactly. Seems really weird not to include Miyabi and Homura on the site. They'll be in the spin off game but once the actual game is out, I dont think they'll be in it. That'd be fine. It'd be like having Ryu without Ken in Street Fighter. Ryu and Ken are actually the most popular characters in SF though. And there really is no overarching story outside of "being ninjas with tits". They can make a game made up of entirely new schools and the "story" would move the same way. Getting rid of Hanzo would be the easiest move (you can write a story without them and they are unpopular) but they arent going to do that based on the new site. So unless you want versus games forever, you're going to be cutting characters. Since Homura is a drag on Asuka's character, her missing a game is fine. She was in SK2, she wont be gone forever.
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Post by ateliertohka on Oct 1, 2016 23:31:59 GMT -5
It'd be like having Ryu without Ken in Street Fighter. Ryu and Ken are actually the most popular characters in SF though. And there really is no overarching story outside of "being ninjas with tits". They can make a game made up of entirely new schools and the "story" would move the same way. Getting rid of Hanzo would be the easiest move (you can write a story without them and they are unpopular) but they arent going to do that based on the new site. So unless you want versus games forever, you're going to be cutting characters. Since Homura is a drag on Asuka's character, her missing a game is fine. She was in SK2, she wont be gone forever. That's not entirely true. Asuka and Homura are a crucial part of the series' identity. This makes them indispensible. They're at the core, and even the Versus series can't keep every character forever. There also is actually an overarching story surrounding the yoma. The characters' story really can't be considered complete until they defeat Shin, the most powerful of the Yoma. Like it or not, all four leaders have to stay, no matter what. Asuka's the poster girl for the series, so she really can't be asked without something looking off. And her character really wouldn't benefit from Homura not being around at all.
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Post by leanmeanlovinmachine on Oct 1, 2016 23:33:22 GMT -5
Ryu and Ken are actually the most popular characters in SF though. And there really is no overarching story outside of "being ninjas with tits". They can make a game made up of entirely new schools and the "story" would move the same way. Getting rid of Hanzo would be the easiest move (you can write a story without them and they are unpopular) but they arent going to do that based on the new site. So unless you want versus games forever, you're going to be cutting characters. Since Homura is a drag on Asuka's character, her missing a game is fine. She was in SK2, she wont be gone forever. That's not entirely true. Asuka and Homura are a crucial part of the series' identity. This makes them indispensible. That's where I disagree big time. So so much disagreement there.
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Post by ateliertohka on Oct 1, 2016 23:34:01 GMT -5
Also, the Mikagura sisters' story is incomplete, so they have to stay for at least one more game.
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Post by ateliertohka on Oct 1, 2016 23:35:19 GMT -5
That's not entirely true. Asuka and Homura are a crucial part of the series' identity. This makes them indispensible. That's where I disagree big time. So so much disagreement there. They're two of the four characters used the most in advertising. I think it's safe to say that they're a big part of the series' identity.
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Post by leanmeanlovinmachine on Oct 1, 2016 23:38:36 GMT -5
That's where I disagree big time. So so much disagreement there. They're two of the four characters used the most in advertising. I think it's safe to say that they're a big part of the series' identity. Yumi/Yomi/Ikaruga/Asuka? And even then Asuka is there as a token. You make it seem like I'm saying they are going to be gone forever. Asuka and Homura's interactions are bland and dry at this point and need a rest. One sitting out is fine if you're looking at games that arent versus. See: Senran Kagura 2. So much for "Ryu and Ken"'s star power. If they could actually carry the series then I wouldnt have to argue this.
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Post by ateliertohka on Oct 1, 2016 23:42:56 GMT -5
They're two of the four characters used the most in advertising. I think it's safe to say that they're a big part of the series' identity. Yumi/Yomi/Ikaruga/Asuka? And even then Asuka is there as a token. You make it seem like I'm saying they are going to be gone forever. Asuka and Homura's interactions are bland and dry at this point and need a rest. One sitting out is fine if you're looking at games that arent versus. See: Senran Kagura 2. So much for "Ryu and Ken"'s star power. Yomi's actually not used that much, and Deep Crimson's not a good example because Yumi and Miyabi's absence contributed to its poor sales. When the time comes, there are a lot of factors to consider, and some characters can't be left out without severe backlash.
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Post by ateliertohka on Oct 1, 2016 23:44:45 GMT -5
Example: Minori sitting a game out isn't very likely to cause backlash. She has very little prominence. Homura's absence would. She's one of the cornerstones.
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Post by leanmeanlovinmachine on Oct 1, 2016 23:54:32 GMT -5
Yumi/Yomi/Ikaruga/Asuka? And even then Asuka is there as a token. You make it seem like I'm saying they are going to be gone forever. Asuka and Homura's interactions are bland and dry at this point and need a rest. One sitting out is fine if you're looking at games that arent versus. See: Senran Kagura 2. So much for "Ryu and Ken"'s star power. Yomi's actually not used that much, and Deep Crimson's not a good example because Yumi and Miyabi's absence contributed to its poor sales. When the time comes, there are a lot of factors to consider, and some characters can't be left out without severe backlash. Miyabi is the 4th most popular in her school. Let's not kid ourselves. Her absence did nothing to SK2's sales. Yomi is advertised a lot. Her Yumi and Ikaruga have been used in the heavy majority of preorder art in Dekamori's physical release, Sakura Edition, and Estival versus. In all of those 3 releases: Miyabi Homura, and Asuka only have 1 piece of art. And it's in EV. And they had to share it too. Homura and Miyabi got a tapestry and Asuka had to share one with Yumi. I guess Homura and Asuka... get put on the cover.
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Post by leanmeanlovinmachine on Oct 1, 2016 23:59:05 GMT -5
Example: Minori sitting a game out isn't very likely to cause backlash. She has very little prominence. Homura's absence would. She's one of the cornerstones. You can say you can get rid of all of Hanzo except Ikaruga because they are both tired and unpopular. You put way too much stock in Homura there. This series cant keep trying the same formulas to expect success. Every time Homura and Asuka interact now, I cringe so hard. It's just forced now. Edit: I'll just say, I wouldnt be arguing all this if Senran Kagura's stock was actually growing. If you have to cut some characters and introduce new ones for fresh points of view to help out the series, it's something new. Because this stuff dies a slow death once you're in the forever versus or forever asuka/homura rut when neither of those characters are really indispensable. Ryu and Ken have been the most popular characters everywhere in a worldwide popular fighting game forever. The moment a poll for SV came out, neither Asuka or Homura were in the top 10. And that was WITH the anime airing at the same time. For a ton of people on the internet in the west, Asuka is nothing but a buffer to Yumi.
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