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Post by Seventh on Apr 21, 2015 0:55:09 GMT -5
See, the issue I have with your argument is that for one side you're saying a videogame needs to give priority to its gameplay and leave the story in a distant second term but if that's the case. Why bother with an story at all? I don't see where I'm even remotely suggesting this. I'd think spending the better part of a a few hours suggesting a hypothetical story for a hypothetical game about hypothetical characters would say the exact opposite. If anything, I give priority to story, which is why Burst is such a sticking point for me because I love the gameplay there. If I didn't care about story, I... kind of doubt we'd be having this conversation, and I worry we may not be if that's the conclusion you've reached. Also, saying that a game needs to be self contained so it doesn't alienates any possible consumers is a notion already proved wrong. Much like the film industry the most succesful games are either sequels or spinoffs and what is more, leaving the player with questions is healthy for any franchise since it promotes major interaction within the fanbase and that in turn, keeps the franchise live in the collective mind. And most of those sequels and spinoffs, as I already mentioned, either are self-contained, don't have huge stories that expand very far into multiple games (has a Final Fantasy ever gone more than three or four sequels?), or are on such a scale that they don't have to worry about it because it's like worring about how Spider-Man got his powers it's such a stable... which, incidentally, is something both series of Spider-Man movies cover. Spinoffs in themselves are often self-contained as well. Kingdom Hearts is perhaps the one major exception I can think of to this, but it probably fits in the category of large scale series at this point by now. As for your topic of questions, that's typically in regards to the future of a series, and not in regards to franchises that get sequels the way Senran seems to want to. I'm talking about leaving players not knowing what happened before because so much has happened and changed, and being put off because of it becomes such an undertaking. I've seen that exact issue taken up with Kingdom Hearts, as a matter of fact, but at least KH is stuffing as much as it can into those new games so people can catch up in as few games on as few consoles as possible. Anyway, we have now all been at this for hours and while I fear I'm being drastically misunderstood, I don't think me talking more will really do me or you any good, so I think it'll be for the best if I bow out, at least for now. For what it's worth, I did mean what I said about wishing you well on your story, so, uh, yeah. Farewell!
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Post by Dai-T on Apr 21, 2015 4:04:55 GMT -5
omg you guys can't understand each other because you all use a wall of text try addressing one issue not all at once.
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Post by ChaddyFantome on Apr 21, 2015 19:03:30 GMT -5
Umm... Okay? You're not really explaining yourself here. You brought it up first. That's still a connection, which is all I said - that I don't see how what I'm saying gets you to go there, even as cliches that are "next to" it - that's still connecting them. If you want to agree to disagree, I'm all for that, but I really do feel like I've been misunderstood here. ..You can't seriously be this cognitively dissonant... Again, I would highly suggest you go back and read the post again. You clearly didn't read it properly. -implying the series has never had dark elements/dark elements are outside it's comfort zone -implying the darker elements aren't inherent to the series since it's inception. It's like you are pretending Sk1/Burst never was a thing or something. If anything, ignoring/undermining the darker elements of the series is change and imo , without a doubt a negative one. I really don't know what you are getting at here. People got into the series because Boobs. People stayed for everything else. What we have left is the characters, the narrative, the world etc.. I mean, how many times do I actually have to repeat myself here. The series is more than just boobs m8. When fans get together to talk about the series, you will find that far more often they are talking about individual characters and what they liked about them before they talk about the boobs, even if what they say tends to be lewd. THIS is what shouldn't be drastically changed. THIS is the main appeal of the series. How is removing or downplaying aspects that have been present since the series' inception the equivalent of not changing the game??!?! I still don't agree for previously stated reasons, but sure. In the future, make it a priority to specify the distinction. Please and thank you. Why do you keep bringing up SV's writing? I don't remember this discussion having anything to do about SV. I thought this was about criticism of the series. It's almost like you are making this some kind of convoluted SV vs Burst debate when it isn't. SV did things that Burst did better. The reverse is also true. There you go again....When did I even imply that this had anything to do with that or that I even cared? Could have fooled me. Ironically, that is my preferred approach. One of the reasons I liked the cast in the original is because the dynamic reminded me alot of the Digimon series. As I have stated multiple times, the plot of neither game was even the point or contention. Bullshit!! Having more character interactions doesn't make the character interactions better. Especially when more than half of em are completely interchangeable with one another. >Looks at the last 3 or so parts of the post...........Again, even thought this conversation had nothing to do with SV, you felt it necessary to make it about it. Why is beyond me, lol. It would if you didn't contradict yourself so much, buddy. You better believe I noticed, lol. It says alot when the only response you have is to undermine the other. This is a series, not a contest/. The games aren't competing with one another and as I stated before, there is nothing wrong with looking at past entries to see the good and bad points of them going forward. In fact, doing the opposite would be borderline stupid. And you yourself stated, people don't like change. I fail to see how examining the better aspects of previous entries is a nagative here. Wow this post is just1y filled with contradictions. In the same post where you mention drastic changes to the series being a bad idea, you suggest scapping everything to zero. Isn't that just brilliant!That is a barrier that cannot be dispersed. It shows you have a very different perspective of the series at large, one that we will most likely never see eye to eye on. And due to this, it is best if we do not try to. yea...nice try You can keep your cookies. I'd much prefer actual coherent argumentation, thank you very much. :rasp:
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Post by Seventh on Apr 21, 2015 19:13:55 GMT -5
Like I said, I am 100% positive there has been a misunderstanding here, perhaps in at least some part because I wasn't able to properly explain myself, but as it's apparent that nothing I'm saying is getting what I actually mean across, and since my attempt at civility fell flatter than Mirai, I think it would be best to just drop this conversation if that's just as well.
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Post by ChaddyFantome on Apr 21, 2015 20:02:01 GMT -5
I wasn't just talking about otaku or this series, though I did mention them because they are a factor - all paying fans are. I'm talking about franchises. Look at the reception Sonic Boom's redesigns got, for one example targeting a completely different demographic. I don't see the corelation here. The only design that got any real flak was Knuckles' for obvious reasons. The complaints with SonicBoom had, ironically, far more to do with the game's plot, the gameplay being repetitive and uninteresting and the characterization being flat and unlike previous games for most characters. Again, this is ironic because all those complaints seem to line up perfectly with what I have been repeating over and over. Not to mention, that game was basically a retcon/reboot type deal. No one is denying that the fanservice is a factor here. It is for the most part how most of us got here, but it is hard for me to believe it is the reason most of us stayed. Like I said, I personally wouldn't be here if it was it's only redeeming factor and I doubt many others would either. That is an issue with any sequel of anything, not just videogames. The only, and I mean only games that don't have this issue to any extent are series that wipe the slate clean every once and a while (Usually the more story driven games), see: FireEmblem, FinalFantasy, Castlevania, or game series that had little to no narrative to begin with. Again see: Mario, StreetFighter. Senran Kagura is much more the former, not the latter. because of the way it is set up, it can't afford to keep the cast doing the same thing over and over forever. No character driven/centric series can or has done this. To borrow your own words, it is too late now. The series has cemented it's identity (admittedly, quite badly and haphazardly) So basically, you are trying to establish a low-effort repetitive system that the developers can use over and over forever, stagnating the series to do nothing of interest. It's like you ignored everything I said before. Neither of those games are character driven like the SK series is. And I find it Hilarious, and I mean hilarious that you would bring up the MGS series.That alone discredits this entire line of reasoning at it is the most convoluted continuing series in the business. No game is really self contained. They all tie into each other. Every game is either a prequel or sequel to a prequel to a sequel to a prequel. Not to mention the series being heavily story driven. At this point, i have doubts you have played much of the series as I being someone who has never touched a game in the series, know that much. So, apparently being a game excepts it's story from actually being evaluated? If the narrative was solely participatory, then maybe you'd have a case, but in every game in the series including the rhythm game spinoff, the narrative and gameplay are almost completely separate. I don't know how you convinced yourself they weren't. 98% of anything story related in any SK game happened in texts blurs or VN segments. How is it then that it is exempt from conventional story analysis when, for all intents and purposes, it was a conventional story? This made me face palm as it makes zero sense and contradicts a previous point you made in saying that developers should want the player to experience the full game. Even then, comparing collecting every pokemon to finishing story mode ? Are you serious? Opinion. The series did not chose that approach. Changing it now would be, well, changing the game to drastically as you have insisted is a negative for the series. Some people like the approach to storytelling, and clearly as shown by the success of the series, the SK fanbase does. Except not really, because the story is static. People experience the story is almost the exact same way, the only deference being how people personally perceive certain evens based purely on personal taste. As stated before, the gameplay and story in SK is almost completely separate. if your contention is to change this, then please speak up. lol There is zero reason to offer more of an experience if it isn't worth while. this is the entertainment business. Engaging the player is the top priority. Simply adding pointless fluff and padding can and will have negative consequences on the game. What is this even supposed to mean, lol. I guess Sonic and Vector the crocodile were linked even though they never interacted beyond the final chapter in Sonic Heroes. Seriously, this just sounds like you had nothing to reply with, but wanted something to say. Just like useless and pointless fluff in games, pointless fluff in you statements can and will have a negative consequence on your credibility. It is becoming harder and harder for me to take you seriously. {This is a biggun} By playing Team 1's story first, you are introduced to Team 2 as friendly characters, Team 4 as antagonistic characters, and Team 5 as characters with some kind of knowledge of what's going on. The ending ties into supernatural elements and foreshadows that there's more to be learned, which a player would infer that they could find in another route of the game.
From there, you might be inclined to play any one of their stories. To make things more like a game proper, let's say 1-3 are the starting teams, 4-5 are unlocked after beating the three of those, and 6 after all five. This now gives the player objectives and goals to accomplish, which is a big part of game design to consider. Rather than offering all of them at once, now the player's options are much less daunting, but not only that, this can be used to benefit the player as well.
Returning to the example, by playing through 1, out of your initial options, only 2 was initially available, so maybe you'll be more inclined to go for them next. Alternatively, maybe you want to go to 3, as they're someone completely new. Either way, your curiosity will likely surely be whet for 4 and 5, so knowing they're unlockable, if nothing else, you now have the goal of unlocking their paths.
By playing 3's story, despite not having the most serious story compared to others, you still learn more about Team 5's history and origins (which I mistakenly wrote as 6 at the end of their first chapter), and you'll see more hints that Team 4 might not be as in control as they might appear in 1's story. Both of these things will be big later on.
2's story is there to provide balance to the game's largely more serious atmosphere, as this series is about balance, or so I've been told, and maybe could have these characters learning about the supernatural things without actually getting involved with Team 4 like in the other stories, so it provides education, so to speak, while still being unique in its own right. 5 might make some appearances here due to how they're involved in the supernatural part of the story, and 1 would naturally appear because they're friendly with 2. If you play this one first, you then have reason to be interested in 1 and 5 at the very least, as well as reason to be happy when 2 shows up in other stories, and you have some knowledge you might not have going into the other stories that you do by playing this one. We could also see more perspective on the 1 and 2 relationship, maybe taking a chapter to rewind and take place before the game's events, for example. This could be used to catch players up, if these are returning characters, or help establish an established relationship.
Once those are out of the way, we now have access to 4 and 5. By this point, if we've played through the first 3, we now have sufficient reason to play through either one.
In 4's story, we learn that there's been a lot going on behind the scenes, and the characters who we thought were villains are actually victims. By we players taking control of them, we allow them a moment of rebellion before the end, and by playing as them even when they're being controlled, we can feel the same struggle they feel, as now we've been forced to do something we may not want to as well. In 5's, this team could delve into what's really going on with 4 and they could represent the "out of the know" teams finding out the shock of 6 being behind things, perhaps by having 3 be the victims of 4 and 6 here. This is important because a player could pick either 4 or 5 first once they become available, and so making sure to convey both sides - 4's side and everyone else's - is important.
Then there's 6. At this point, you've now played through every story, seen all the trials and tribulations of these characters, and probably don't like that you're playing as the villains - which is an important thing to do with "dark" parts of games. It's said that with horror games, the most important part is to make players do things they don't want to do. Likewise, to see this through to the end, players will need to play as the very villains that they probably want to beat up most of all by this point. It both offers an option, as people are often drawn to villains, and it allows us to explore the last piece of the puzzle that makes up the game's story as a whole.
If you'd like, let's say we could assume 6 is the "true" story path. While I'm not necessarily a fan of that school of game design with games with multiple paths, we could still go there. After we see things from 6's perspective, maybe with 6 seemingly coming out victorious, the last chapter opens up. By this point, we've learned things about all of the teams, their motivations, what they know, and while not every team might know everything about the situation, we, the player, do.
The last chapter could play out with all the teams gathering together and pooling their power into one team to go off and fight. This could either be the "main" team, or the last cutscene could trail off with a "The ones who should go will be..." moment and turn to a character select. Then perhaps it could have you up against a monster of some kind, combining the frantic "survival mode" elements of the Daidouji/Rin battles in Burst with some of the series' monstrous bosses.
To top it off, we have the individual story modes complimenting all of this, which primarily offer character relationships forming, insight into characters, and things like that. Maybe SV's take on this concept wasn't the best, but I still stress that these can be used to add to the experience as a whole. No, they're not necessarily tied to the larger story that the story modes are all telling, but they're tied to the characters you meet throughout and that in itself is something that they add - it allows you to learn more about them, to get to know them better, and to form a relationship between them. Not like a waifu and husbando thing, but the relationship all consumers of fiction have with their medium of choice - these simply allow you to deepen those bonds, and I think that's fairly harmless. It's not like Persona's social links or a story-capable fighting game's arcade modes ever truly tie into the stories much, but you can bet they'll often add a lot to the characters they revolve around.
In essence, because games are more than just books or TV shows, you can create this kind of storytelling. It's something only games can do, and games can do so much more than that - they can do so much more than just a story that goes in a straight line. This is not really a novel concept - I've played fighting games that have a similar way to tell their stories, for example.
To bring up one specific example, while early BlazBlues went further and used time loops and such to really tie everything together in that it all happened sort of, the premise was still ultimately the same in that all the varying stories earlier in, while not necessarily matching up, provide the player with information in regards to the major story at hand as a whole, and in turn, tell them a whole story through pieces. It's something only video games can do, and yes, maybe we shouldn't jump right to 6 teams and 30 characters until SK's writers prove they can handle a smaller number, but to suggest that the concept can't work is, and I mean no offense, disrespectful to people who write for video games and even game designers, as these are decisions that take place on the gameplay level too. Now for your situation, a lot of that is something primarily only inherent to a crossover (the power level stuff), and more than that, someone who, well, cares. That's not a bad thing, it's good to care, but in the case of a game where there's only one creator involved, rather than multiple ones or a fan trying to be true to multiple ones, they are "god," and so what they say goes. If Asuka needs to lose for the sake of the plot, for example, that's what's going to happen. Within a single series, power levels typically aren't given as much thought as some might have you believe. Again, this gets back to how we're talking about a video game versus a novel. I have played through VNs, and I don't even play that many VNs, where ignoring the other paths means you are going to absolutely miss aspects of the story, from minor to major ones. In offering choice, game stories don't have to be told in a line. They can be told in pieces, in a zigzag, however you want - nothing I'm suggesting here is honestly that particularly new, it's been something games have had for years. Hell, quite a few Atlus games toe this line, though their routes start partway in rather than being something you select from the getgo. My point is that video game development and video game stories can be told in ways you couldn't imagine just by thinking in terms of the straight lines books and movies offer. Have you ever played The Stanley Parable? It's not the same situation exactly, but I'd highly recommend at least looking up a playthrough if you're considering video game design or writing for a video game someday. i don't know if your stance had changed while I was gone or something, but you are doing a very good job of confusing me here. As for Ayame, she , like the other NW, doesn't need to be playable. Rather, more New Waves should follow her and become NPC's
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Post by Seventh on Apr 21, 2015 20:14:26 GMT -5
As I said, I request that this be dropped. I do appreciate the time you took replying, setting aside the content of that reply, but as I have zero intention of continuing further based on how things have gone up to now, I really do insist.
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Post by ChaddyFantome on Apr 21, 2015 20:17:58 GMT -5
As I said, I request that this be dropped. I do appreciate the time you took replying, setting aside the content of that reply, but as I have zero intention of continuing further based on how things have gone up to now, I really do insist. Alright then. I did initially suggest it, didn't I?
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Post by Dai-T on Apr 22, 2015 0:50:17 GMT -5
As I said, I request that this be dropped. I do appreciate the time you took replying, setting aside the content of that reply, but as I have zero intention of continuing further based on how things have gone up to now, I really do insist. gosh even you threw in the towel.
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Post by kinryuten on May 4, 2015 23:55:25 GMT -5
Can we all agree that we have opinions? It's okay to have differing ones. We are homo sapiens (wise man) after all, so start showing it!
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Post by thesameguy on May 5, 2015 7:39:57 GMT -5
Can we all agree that we have opinions? It's okay to have differing ones. We are homo sapiens (wise man) after all, so start showing it! Well, we're technically called homo sapien sapien. Man wise wise. Don't know why.
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Post by Seventh on Nov 16, 2015 14:47:37 GMT -5
So here's one I think we can all agree on.
Wouldn't it be great if everybody could have the LE options everyone gets? Be it Japan, Europe, US, let's share the love, eh?
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Post by supersamzero on Nov 16, 2015 19:13:05 GMT -5
So here's one I think we can all agree on. Wouldn't it be great if everybody could have the LE options everyone gets? Be it Japan, Europe, US, let's share the love, eh? That'd make sense but sadly thats just how it works an it sucks :/ Europe gets da cooler stuff or vice versa an japan gets everythinggggg. Ughhh its lame
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Post by CGXJP on Aug 10, 2016 21:27:45 GMT -5
Yumi's overexposure. That is all.
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Post by Leon Tekashi on Aug 13, 2016 12:31:50 GMT -5
New Wave inbalance of new cards. Popularity isn't the only thing that matters. Business wise, it works for them, but consumer wise, not everyone is going to be on board with this. Not everyone wants mostly Yumi. Not everyone wants mostly Asuka and the other 18 characters. Not everyone want Leo, Yuyaki, Bashou and Souji.
If they can balance out the exposure of characters, that would be much appreciated. Everyone would win to a degree.
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